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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
purpleviolet1 · 02/04/2018 10:09

Oh no quacking, TOTM approaching?

So I've been hovering at 9st 2lbs since I hit my lowest on 20/2 at 9st 0.3lbs. It will take me 4 weeks to get back to that as I only lose half a lb a week or so as my tdee is quite low. Not as bad as I expected as I haven't any FD's for the last two weeks and have had various celebrations so I'm ok with it.

Back on the FD wagon tomorrow

BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 10:58

Good luck to the Easter Monday fasters - MrD, Bug, Fennel

Don't panic, Duck that'll just be undigested food and retained water - sounds like totm too.

Fennel As I posted upthread, I recommend newbies try 5:2 without counting on NFDs - just follow the 5:2 healthy habits:
No snacking, keep to NHS alcohol limits, sensible about treats

If your loss is not as expected, or if you plateau later for 2-3 weeks, then I recommend mfp for a week, to review what you eat & drink.

Mosely's book assumed most people's "normal" eating was around TDEE - and this indeed works for many.

However, we found that some folk who have been overweight for years have got used to eating & drinking far more than their body burns,
so they have to retrain their "normal" on NFDs to be around TDEE.
mfp for them is a good training tool, until they can judge what to consume

This must be a permanent change for longterm weight management;
otherwise they'll put the weight back on as soon as they reach goal, yo-yoing.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 11:02

I like the "Trousers of Truth" Grin
We often have "Trousers Falling Down" NSVs too

OP posts:
HLBug · 02/04/2018 11:14

quacking you absolutely know that cannot be added fat - water, poo and hormones. You did not eat 18,000 extra calories. I bet the clothes you wore yesterday still fit today. Did you enjoy the meal and time with family? Remember that's what life is about, not numbers on a scale, and this WOL will have your back.

purple it comforts me to know that progresses is slow with you too Wink I didn't bother to weigh myself this morning to check the "damage". I've been weighing almost daily recently and I'm pissing myself off. Far too many nonsensical fluctuations. So as of this week I'm back to weekly.

Waves to MrD and fennel - hello fellow Monday fasting buddies.

littleladylawyer · 02/04/2018 12:03

Morning all, hope you've had lovely Easters.

I had a really nice weekend and managed to spend lots of time with the family while also having some chill out time with DP! Ate loads yesterday- big Sunday lunch, cheese, choc and wine.

I'm in for a b2b today and tomorrow bug. I definitely feasted yesterday and my body feels like it wants a good break from the treats and a chance to recover! Nice to have MrD and fennel in for today too, we can all end the bank holiday on a good healthy note Smile

GrannyPenny · 02/04/2018 12:06

Quacking - your scales are obviously a day late April fool joke.

I have a hacking cough. Just in time for teenage visitors who, being teenagers, have zero sympathy. Today is my idea of hell - clothes shopping on a wet rainy cold bank holiday.

Goals for today. No snacking. Embrace misery.

littleladylawyer · 02/04/2018 12:27

quacking don't let the number get you down, there is no way that gain can be fat. As granny said, your scales must be playing some kind of April Fools prank.

Good luck with the teenagers Granny, I hope your cough improves.

DP has asked if we can have a slow cooked beef stew type thing for dinner, does anyone have any fd suitable recipes?

TheMShip · 02/04/2018 13:26

littlelady I should think a standard recipe would be fine? Just limit the amount of meat in your own serving and use non-starchy vegetables like carrots and peas.

Good luck with the shopping granny! Hope you can find a nice hot takeaway cup of tea to carry around with you.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 14:26

lawyer FD stew

  • Lean meat / chicken breast is fine - avoid fatty cuts, legs, wings etc
  • Put in lots of non-starchy veg, e.g. tomato, onion, mushrooms, bell peppers; carrot is Ok too
  • Bulk it more with beans / peas / lentils - good for blood sugar
  • Also chunks of butternut squash
  • Don't put potatoes or other starchy carbs in the stew - instead have them as sides for DH, with optionally a small portion for you - boiled or baked, NOT mash / roast / fried
  • Have 2-3 non-starchy veg sides, e.g. spinach, broccoli, cauliflower (no cheese), peas, aubergine, zucchini
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 14:29

If possible, just have Bovril for lunch (10 cals) and make dinner your only meal
Half a plate with stew; the other half with non-starchy veg and you can have a good plateful without counting cals

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/04/2018 14:36

Hello everyone .... been awol over easter as had dad staying and it's been non stop... also eaten and drank way too much Blush and actually, apart from 1 meal I didn't really enjoy the over indulging, I feel awful for it today and I have a bit of a hangover to boot. Was going to have today as fd but had to eat some carbs, going to fast tomorrow and Thursday instead.

Well done on all the svs and nsvs Smile good luck to those fasting today.

quackingduck222 · 02/04/2018 15:06

I’m having a FD now instead as my family have decided they have scoffed enough Easter eggs so they don’t want tea.

Not TOTM but yes has to be undigested food as that is ridiculous.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 02/04/2018 16:29

I’m doing my FD tomorrow - jar of Bovril at the ready. Grin

Looking forward to it although didn’t go too crazy over the weekend.

Good luck to today’s fasters - not long to go now!

NoWayNoHow · 02/04/2018 17:10

Hi all. FD here for me today too, but not how I planned it! Had accidental mini fast on Saturday as was feeling horrible, then yesterday was accidental 16:8 (just over TDEE) as still wasn't feeling 100%.

Today feeling dreadful again: nauseous, hot/cold, achey with sore nerve endings. So far have had 3 bites of banana and 1/4 bottle of flat Coke to quash billious-ness. Pretty shocking Easter weekend all round in terms of health, but if there's a silver lining then surely that'll be a SV on Friday (ever hopeful)?!?!

OohMrDarcy · 02/04/2018 18:09

Evening all

Kitchen closed on around 560, and a nicely full belly.

Lawyer, if I do a stew I use lean diced stewing beef, with carrots, parsnip, Swede, leek and celery and a sachet for the date and bung it all in the slow cooker. I do potatoes on the side for the DC and sometimes add some extra brocolli or something for me on the side. That sort of thing is handy for a FD when the kids are around as I try not to make a 'thing' of it if that makes sense. Haven't done it for a while but I think it comes in at sub 400 calories so I can have a little something at lunchtime if needed, or have a tiny bit more at dinner if I want.

OohMrDarcy · 02/04/2018 18:09

Noway sorry to hear you are poorly, rest up and feel better soon

HLBug · 02/04/2018 19:51

B2B Day 1 - kitchen closed at 645 calories. 3 small meals, all with the DC, and feeling fine.

UnnecessaryFennel · 02/04/2018 20:16

Kitchen has just closed at 538 for my second fast day. Had a cup of tea, a Bovril and a cup of lemon and ginger, plus lots of water. Then broke my fast at 7.30pm, so more or less 24 hours.

Felt pretty good all day, very slightly headachey by about 6.30pm but nothing to write home about.

Am going out for lunch and the cinema tomorrow with ds and dp, so I have a feeling it will be a bit of an indulgent day. But I've got another fast day planned for Weds so I feel happy to push the boat out a little tomorrow Smile

littleladylawyer · 02/04/2018 20:44

Thanks bigchoc and MrD. In the end we couldn't be bothered to go food shopping so I had some waitrose frozen kedgeree which was surprisingly nice and under 300cal.

Sorry you're not feeling well noway, hope things get better soon.

Well done bug and fennel. Today has been fine, planning soup for lunch then chicken and loads of stir fry veg for supper tomorrow. Just need to avoid all the choc hanging around!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/04/2018 21:10

Sorry to hear you feel so poorly, noway
Is it just flu-like symptoms hanging around, or is there some food or drink or stress that triggers it ?
TLC, drink lots of water, have an early night and I hope you feel better tomorrow.

I hope your cough is better too, granny and that the shopping trip with teens went well.
Hot tea, hot Bovril and lots of plain water for your throat. (not mixed together !)

Well done on very good Easter Monday FDs, bug, MrD, Fennel, lawyer

duck Was your weighing under identical conditions ?
Some variations can change "weight" by several lb

Weigh consistently:

  • First thing in the morning, Naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.
  • Same scales, always in the same position on a level, hard floor - not carpet.
  • (for digital) Switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on, so they have time to zero properly
  • Step on, no jumping; keep still & don't shift your balance or lean to one side
  • If weight seems inconsistent, replace batteries
OP posts:
NoWayNoHow · 02/04/2018 21:31

Well done all FDs! Good job on an Easter Monday.

bcf it's not flu I don't think (had that earlier this year) - just terrible stomach cramps, nausea etc. Can't stop sleeping... Doesn't appear to be connected to any food or drink as I've not had anything particularly different/weird this weekend.

Hopefully will go away soon!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 07:20

Poor you, noway Thanks
If you've had it a couple of weeks and it's no better, do see your doctor for advice

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 07:23

Crikey, only 3 weeks since the snow melted - 19C forecast today and 21-22 C Sat - Mon
Looking forward to sunny Rhine walks Smile

I hope it‘s sunny wherever our Monday gang are fasting

OP posts:
boldlygoingsomewhere · 03/04/2018 07:26

Morning!

Ready for FD here. Good luck fellow Tuesday fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 07:28

Oops, delirious at seeing the sun Grin !
Good luck to the Tuesday fasters !

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