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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
HLBug · 03/04/2018 08:06

BCF snow in the north of Scotland again today. I'd happily take 10-12 degrees C at the moment - that would be a definite improvement, never mind 19-21!!!

Day 2 of B2B and all is (so far) feeling good.

UnnecessaryFennel · 03/04/2018 08:23

Morning all Smile

noway that sounds nasty - I would see the Dr if were you. Hope it sorts itself soon though.

bug, apologies if this should be obvious - do you always do back-to-back FDs and how do you find them? I must admit even though I've found my FDs pretty easy so far I might struggle with two in a row!

Thanks for the advice and encouragement all, it's really helpful and I love that this WOE is so relaxed.

The scales do show quite a drop but I guess that will be water weight and bloat mainly! I definitely feel lighter and more comfortable in my own body though, iyswim? Which is fantastic in itself really.

Out today and although I'm looking forward to lunch I don't feel the need to overdo it. I probably won't eat until then which will mean probably a total of 600 cals in around 40 hours. That's quite a deficit whichever way you look at it!

HLBug · 03/04/2018 08:56

Fennel I don't always do B2Bs but the last few weeks I have as it's fitted in better with "life". Tuesdays and Thursdays have typically been my FDs. I started with 5:2 last July so I'm well into the swing of things now and B2Bs don't bother me - you can have 650 calories on each day when you B2B which, if anything, makes me feel more relaxed and comfortable. Yesterday I managed 3 small meals with that allowance.

You could always give it a try in a few weeks and see how you get on? some people love them as it gets the FDs out of the way very quickly, but for others it can mean a tendency to go off the rails if they haven't had a FD in a few days.

The thing with intermittent fasting is that it's full of useful "tools" that you can use to fit round life. 14/10 or 16/8 daily, 5:2 weekly, B2Bs, 3 x

Quietlife1979 · 03/04/2018 09:13

Hello all can I join the thread!!

Really struggling to lose my last bit of baby weight and need to lose about a stone in six weeks for a girls trip away - other wise I need to buy shit loads of bigger holiday clothes Blush

Been a complete pig this weekend and going to fast today Brew

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/04/2018 09:34

Good morning all! I'm sort of on a FD today. I'm finally feeling much better and have been out for a walk this morning.

The weekend ended up a bit "snacky" although nothing too crazy. I'm trying to build in a longer overnight fast. I find it really feels good for my body and I just function better. So far today I've had about three glasses of water and a big herbal tea. There is coffee waiting for me that I'm looking forward to.

Am I right in thinking B2B is day 1 @ 500 and day 2 @ 650?

I'm not going to be mega strict today, it is my first FD in a long time - and I need to have some lunch so I can take some meds. But I will see how I go Smile
And I am so glad to finally be feeling better!
I've also been for a good walk this morning.

quackingduck222 · 03/04/2018 09:56

BCF great news at you having some sun. Are the winters really cold in Germany?

Yesterday’s weighing conditions were identical the only thing I can think that could of affected them is I haven’t been toilet for 5 days. I’ve been taking fiber supplements recently and since upping good carbs I became very frequent but not sure what happened this week. Scales now say I’ve lost 3.4 lbs.

Hello quiet life and welcome. I think your goal sounds doable. Good luck for your FD today.

Underpants- B2B both days at 650. You start the 2nd FD in a already fasted state.

Good luck to all the fasters today

littleladylawyer · 03/04/2018 10:06

Checking in for day 2 of B2B. So far feeling fine, although just realised I forgot to get chicken out of the freezer for dinner.

The road I park in for work has now been made permit only along with all others around the area, and the nearest place I'll be able to park for free is 1.6 miles away. I'm trying to look at it in a positive way- 30 mins of brisk walking twice a day during the week is going to be good for me and improve my currently sedentary lifestyle. I'll keep telling myself that when it's pouring and I have a suitcase of files with me!

Good luck bug and boldly and any other Tuesday fasters.

littleladylawyer · 03/04/2018 10:15

Sorry underpants I missed your post! Glad you're feeling better and hope it goes well today. Take it easy and don't be too strict on yourself if you're not feeling right.

Welcome quiet and good luck today. I love the feeling of 'resetting' my body with fasting after the weekend if I've over indulged. I'm still working on not over-indulging in the first place but getting better!

NoWayNoHow · 03/04/2018 11:23

bcf I'd murder DH for some of your lovely weather! Fairly sure we're deep into month 6 of winter and, as someone who originates from much sunnier climes, I'm starting to get the rage!

Welcome, quietlife - your goal sounds totally doable. Good luck for your first FD!

underpants glad you're finally feeling better - good idea just to ease yourself into it. Be kind to your body.

quacking I definitely think that not going to the loo for that long will have had an impact on the scales. I'm also struggling with similar at the moment (possibly because of illness) and I know it will make readings slightly unreliable. How are your clothes fitting, etc?

Was feeling a bit better this morning, but still very weak. For breakfast, had some spelt sourdough toast with peanut butter and banana (just to try to get some good fats/nutrients in) and that has left me feeling quite crampy again. Not sure how much food I can face, so today may turn into another inadvertent mini-fast - we shall see.

boldly, HLBug, fennel and littlelady* - good like with your FDs today!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 11:27

Welcome, quietlife Smile
Most important tip to reach goal quickly: no snacking between meals

underpants both days on b2b are 650 cals

duck if you are constipated, then obviously that can increase "weight" by several lb
I hope that clears up soon
Drink lots of water, to help flush it through

OP posts:
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/04/2018 11:52

Those who asked about German weather - I'd say it is more extreme than in the U.K. so colder in winter and hotter in summer. Which is ok. But also more stable than U.K. weather.

So, where I live is fairly wet and grey (not a place I would have picked...) and when the forecast says it will rain all week then it will rain, all week Sad. We have a lovely breakfast of sun here today. It really feels like spring has arrived!

Butteredparsn1ps · 03/04/2018 12:29

Checking in for the first leg of this week's B2B. So far have survived on 2 cuppa's and half a spoon of marmite. Definitely getting hungry hangry though. Have fish planned for tea, so perhaps an omelette for lunch.

Good luck fellow FDers.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 03/04/2018 13:17

I’ve just had my first ever cup of Bovril - totally delicious! Can’t believe I’ve missed out all these years.

southeastlondonmum · 03/04/2018 15:41

Hello all,
First b2b went well last week. Clocked in at 650 first day and 700 last day. Stuffed my face over the weekend so on a FD today. Hoping to undo damage

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/04/2018 16:35

Checking in... FD today and I'm feeling so much better for it after a long weekend of excess and snacking Blush had subway salad for lunch and probably a mushroom omelette with salad for dinner. Looking forward to getting back into the no snacking rule as it's been such a revelation, but it just goes to show those bad habits are so easily slipped back in to for me... eek!!

Hope you manage to go the toilet soon duck that'll account for the weight gain.

Good luck to all you b2bers, I might try one next week.

UnnecessaryFennel · 03/04/2018 18:22

boldly, I'm a new convert to Bovril too, it's delicious! Who'd have thought?

So, went out for lunch today with ds and dp, thought I'd probably go a bit crazy but thankfully the food wasn't good enough to warrant it Grin. However I did share a starter - and then had pasta with a buttery sauce which apparently was almost 1200 cals (I looked out of curiosity). Most of you probably won't be at all surprised by that but I was! I have no idea about calories...

Then we went to the cinema, and that would usually be an excuse to get a bucket of popcorn and a drink. I had a bottle of water Shock. We're now home and I'm not the slightest bit interested in dinner. All in all I think I've probably had around 1500 cals today and I may well stop there (maybe a Bovril later!)

So, I'm not quite sure what this ramble is actually getting at, but it seems that one very early side-effect of this WOE is indeed to shrink my appetite! It's lovely to just think 'not bothered about eating at the moment' - feels very freeing.

Looking forward to another FD tomorrow.

UnnecessaryFennel · 03/04/2018 19:15

Can I ask a question about MFP? How accurate is it? I found the list of foods from today's restaurant on there, but the MFP calorie count for the meal I had is almost half of the calorie count listed on their website! Which would of course be great but I don't want to kid myself.

However, it appears that the nutrition info on the website is for the American branches - I guess perhaps their portions are likely to be bigger? If it was just a difference of 100 cals I wouldn't bother but 650 vs 1150 is quite a lot!

purpleviolet1 · 03/04/2018 19:16

FD today. Went to grans and she forced me to have some food - so I had a tiny bit. I had two small pieces of chicken breast, 3 tablespoons of mash, 2 spears of broccoli and about 5 barons of carrots with a small drizzle of gravy.

I've now had 1 weetobix which comes in at 150 cals.

Do you think I've kept under 550 cals?? I bloody well hope so because there is a piece of wedding cake calling out to me but I am determined not to jack it in!Sad

littleladylawyer · 03/04/2018 19:23

Day 2 of b2b done at 485! Had a sushi snack pack at lunch and a Kirsty's sweet potato topped cottage pie with broc for dinner. Feel nicely full so hopefully will be alright until lunchtime tomorrow.

fennel well done at the cinema- sounds like you are listening to your body rather than eating just because it's available/ a meal time.

BigChoc I have a question about junk food being stored preferentially as abdominal fat. What does our body consider 'junk food'? I don't understand how it knows if I've had pizza or a salad with cheese, dressing and wholegrains when the fat, sugar and carb content could be the same? I get a bit confused as to what counts as junk. The obvious things like cake and biscuits are fine, but what it's the inbetweeny things I'm not sure about- like crumpets, a baked potato with cheese and beans or good quality choc.

purpleviolet1 · 03/04/2018 19:31

In addition to littlelady can I ask how many days of excessive eating there can be which an FD will fix (not going absolutely nuts on calorie intake) - Basically the transit time between being digested and turned into hard fat if that makes sense Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 19:58

Not exactly what I said / meant, lawyer

I probably said excess calories from sugary treats - cake, biscuits, sweets etc ´ and alcohol are stored preferentially around the mid-section as fat,

meaning that of the possible places to store the excess as fat - which is what happens to excess calories - those kinds of food show up more around your waist than excess calories from a healthier choice.

Alcohol has an additional problem re weight loss:
after drinking alcohol, the liver stops fat-burning for however many hours it takes, until it has processed the toxic byproducts of alcohol - this detoxification is prioritised.

"Junk food" I would define as something with little or no nutritional value, "empty" calories,
often containing significant amounts of harmful substances, such as fats processed to be longlife, sugars to excite the taste buds or various substances straight out of the chemistry lab.

Junk food usually has highly processed ingredients, such as very finely milled white flour & sugar.
It often starts a cravings spiral - by deliberate design of the producers

What Michael Pollan famously called "edible food-like substances"
Many overweight folk who consume too many calories, are still deficient in important nutrients.

Junk / healthy is not about carbs, fat, protein, but about nutrients that your body needs to be healthy

For 2 meals with identical calories, carbs, fat, protein one could be junk and the other could be nutritious.
Your body doesn't handle them the same way and they don't have the same effect on your body wrt hormones, fat storage, gut bacteria.

A junky / boozy diet - or even too many carbs for someone insulin resistant - can hinder weight loss even if the calorie deficit is there

Junk is not necessarily high calorie food:
e.g. with wholegrains, fried fish and salad with lots of olive oil, you might have too large a portion of healthy food, but that is a different issue

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 20:00

purple A very rough rule of thumb is that if you tackle excess weight within 14 days, you would find it easier to lose,
than if you try to lose the same amount of weight months later

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 20:04

There have been a couple of studies showing that people with a junky diet need to consume about 8% fewer calories than someone on a healthy diet, to achieve the same weight loss.

That's an average:
e.g. someone with insulin resistance, preT2, or on certain meds might be unable to lose without a ridiculously large calorie deficit, if their diet is junky.

OP posts:
HLBug · 03/04/2018 20:10

Day 2 of B2B closing on about 680 kcals. As per previous weeks, Day 2 much easier than Day 1.

purpleviolet1 · 03/04/2018 20:20

Thanks very much BCF. Just wondered. Kitchen closed and in bed.