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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
HLBug · 31/03/2018 07:50

underpants I do occasionally fast with the DC around but not every week. Soup is a good lunch time option, as are scrambled eggs / omelettes etc for lunch or dinner.

UnnecessaryFennel · 31/03/2018 08:59

I actually quite enjoyed my FD yesterday - is that weird? Grin My dinner tasted great as well. I think one of the things that is going to be really important for me to remember is that, actually, sugary crap food is often a huge disappointment, gets eaten mindlessly, and quickly forgotten about - in other words it's rarely worth it!

I will have to take a look at those Fat Blasts. I am a real exercise-avoider mainly because of my terrible pelvic floor but I know I should do something.

Paranormalbouquet · 31/03/2018 11:03

@UnnecessaryFennel I quite enjoy fast days too so far. Once I start eating it’s hard to stop. Had wine the past 2 days, so will try avoid for next few days. Having a sedentary day travelling on Monday and again Friday next week so might try fasting then. Although have to eat out Monday night so probably won’t be a proper 500cal day but figure if I can get in

GrannyPenny · 31/03/2018 14:19

I postponed my run again yesterday as the lowest prediction of rain with a 40% chance at 2 p.m. turned into 100% for the remainder of the day. Currently no sun forecast until Thursday (although it's trying hard at the moment).

Paranormal I find the sedentary travelling days incomprehensibly tiring and so very boring - can't imaging throwing a FD into the mix.

Bug - I've never succeeded on maintenance, snacking habits have crept back in all too easily. To be honest I think I'm one of those people who didn't really appreciate that the real purpose of 5:2 was health and not weight loss and Tip's recent reminder of this came as a bit of a lightbulb moment for me. My BMI is also in the mid healthy range, but I'm back here and staying accountable as excess calories are now stored instantly around my waist and abdomen and I hate it. I've got it out of the unhealthy ratio (10cm down) but there's still another 14cm to go to turn the clock back 40 years. A ridiculously impossible goal, but I haven't accepted that yet.

Anyway. Realistic goals for today. Conditioning gym class - done; no snacking; go for a run; no snacking.

OohMrDarcy · 31/03/2018 18:58

Evening all,

Am back from the family trip. I'm pleased with how I did. Dinner out consisted of one delicious course, and a spoonful of the DC pud. Whole evening amounted to no more than 2 glasses ... 1 large wine and a prosecco. Grin. Today, food hasn't been as good. But no snacking, drinking mostly water and lots of walking. Suspect slightly over TDEE but I've had it as a feast day and back to normal from tomorrow!

GrannyPenny · 31/03/2018 19:12

Finally got my run in. The sun was shining as I got ready, disappeared as I stepped out of the door, light clouds turned to grey clouds at mile 2, it was spitting with rain by mile 3 and by mile 4 a head wind had whipped up and it started to pour down. Arrived home decidedly wet. By the time I had finished stretching the rain had stopped and the sun was trying to peak out between the clouds. Raining now again though.

purpleviolet1 · 31/03/2018 20:10

Silly question. Who is the author of the original 5:2 book mentioned on the thread?

Well done to all of you who are finding motivation in the holidays

quackingduck222 · 31/03/2018 20:15

Well done Granny. Mission accomplished!

Well done Darcy, you showed some real restraint there.

I thought I’d done so well this week with meal planning and prepping to get ahead. We had been wasting food so wanted to see if this helped. It has and I was so pleased that we could all share meals this week and found some new meal ideas everyone settled on.

Until I gave everyone D&V (apart from myself)
I’m not the best cook but could this of caused it....
I made cottage pie using turkey mince Cooked it yesterday. Put them in the fridge then I reheated them in the oven today. Blush
Are you not supposed to do that with turkey mince?

I do it with with minced beef but it’s just occurred to me maybe this is why?

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2018 21:57

Well done on drinking in moderation ,MrD ** and no snacking

You did really well to persist and nail that run, granny

I suggest for this WOL, your main goal should be to make "no snacking`' a permanent habit
It doesn't mean no treats, just not as often and only as part of a meal

Jumping on and off is "dieting", rather than the lifestyle change we need for longterm weight management, especially those of us who are post-meno.

Do you snack from hunger / boredom / habit / social pressure to join in ?
Or is it the mental switch that you are no longer "dieting" so you are entitled to snack ?
If it's the urge to nibble, then I suggest if you get desperate you munch raw carrots / celery / cucumber, no dip or anything else though. Those are all v low cal and low GI veg.

duck That mince should have been ok after only 24 hrs in the fridge, presuming:

  • The mince hadn't been out of the fridge too long before it was cooked the first time, or before it was reheated
  • and when reheating, the internal meat temperature (not just the oven temp) was at least 70C for over 2 minutes Maybe they ate something else before they came to yours.

purple Mosely wrote the 5:2 book that first outlined the basic system most of us follow.

He based 5:2 on research by several top-notch scientists, including Dr Michelle Harvie.; she had already developed what I referred to as the "original" 5:2 , which is basically b2b with 650 low carb cals.
However, although her system was earlier and she had successful human trials, Mosely actually wrote his book before hers.

However, I can't recommend her book, because I found it very muddled, difficult to understand exactly what people ate in her system.
She is an excellent scientist, but unfortunately does not write well or clearly, which is unlucky for her.

Mosely is an excellent writer, very clear and actually includes far more science, just well explained so anyone can understand.

OP posts:
Paranormalbouquet · 31/03/2018 22:10

@quackingduck222 it’s unlikely to have been the reheated turkey if it was piping hot. The only thing that makes you sick that quickly is staphylococcal food poisoning- that kicks in around 6-8 hours after eating and is vomiting predominant.

I’ve been sticking to 3 meals on my holiday with family but having too much wine. Mainly as having had 3 miscarriages in a short time I can’t bear for anyone to think I’m pregnant again but have decided no more tomorrow as it’s putting me over my TDEE I’m sure.

UnnecessaryFennel · 01/04/2018 10:49

Happy Easter all! I am surrounded by chocolate and will certainly be having some today but not going crazy!

Yesterday was fairly successful I think. A NFD but I didn't go overboard and I did drink lots of water. Think I was probably over my TDEE as dp suggested a 'payday takeaway' and I did also have a glass of wine but I'm not fussing about it.

The scales show a small drop this morning but they're a bit rubbish so I'm not setting too much store by them. I have a beautiful pair of Comptoir des Cottoniers jeans and a gorgeous silk skirt that I can currently not get into, and they will be my guides. My energy is already up and I feel 'lighter'. Plus I'm actually looking forward to my fast day tomorrow! So it's all good I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 12:58

Happy Easter, fennel and everyone
Sounds a sensible day yesterday

OP posts:
yogi47 · 01/04/2018 13:32

NSV today - day 1, week 1 of C25K done today... 3.5 months after spine op to replace a disc. Few twinges so taking it slow but still a start.

yogi47 · 01/04/2018 13:33

Sorry carried away with excitement of writing my run down that forgot to say Happy Easter to all and well done to anyone on a FD over this weekend! Smile

NoWayNoHow · 01/04/2018 13:45

Happy Easter all! Not had a chance to catch up on thread, but hope all doing well surrounded by chocs!

Inadvertent mini-FD yesterday after feeling incredibly nauseous, feverish and shaky. Still not 100% which will make today easier.

Hope you're all enjoying the long weekend!

quackingduck222 · 01/04/2018 15:13

Happy Easter everyone hope your all having a lovely day off.

Fantastic Yogi, thats a huge NSV.

TalkinPeece · 01/04/2018 16:51

purple
The original book is written by MM and Mimi Rogers
these thread s got involved because they clearly did an internet search and found us
Mimi joined in for a while and bounced ideas while MM carried on down his medical route
it was a symbiotic serendipity

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2018 17:55

Well done on your c25k NSV, yogi That's good news.
With your dodgy back, obviously take it slowly and gradually

I recommend you always have a rest-day after each running day and whenever you need one
Maybe just run for 2 days a week and cross-train for 2 days
e.g. pilates to strengthen core and upper body, yoga for additional flexibility, or swimming.

OP posts:
HLBug · 01/04/2018 20:50

Happy Easter everyone Easter Smile

I've relaxed the last few days and have had some lovely days / meals with friends and family. No snacking though Halo Finishing the week with about 1000 calorie overall deficit - very glad I threw in that extra Mini!

New week starts tomorrow and I'm thinking of a Monday/Tuesday B2B or Tuesday / Thursday FDs - will see how i feel in the morning.

HLBug · 02/04/2018 08:15

Ok, I'm going for the B2B. Anyone else fasting today and want to keep me company?

TheMShip · 02/04/2018 08:24

Not today, bug , but I'll be cheering you on and aiming to stick my own no snacking goal.

OohMrDarcy · 02/04/2018 08:42

Morning all,

I'm here and aiming for a fast today. Going to go straight through then I'm doing a mini roast later. So will have chicken breast, veggies and maybe a little roast potato / tiny bit of gravy. Yum.

yogi47 · 02/04/2018 08:51

Thanks Bcf. Good idea - I have a tendency to do too much to quickly and pay for it. I definitely will take it very slowly. I've been doing yoga as part of my recovery which has been amazing. If the running feels too much I will revert back to brisk walking. Just wanted to get back out there and aim for a Park Run! Resigned myself to no more than that.... but it's such a time efficient way to exercise, straight out the door and back within 30 or 40 mins.

Good luck FDers - I'm looking to B2B Tuesday and Wednesday so will check in tomorrow! Hoping to re-balance and at least STS after a week/weekend of excess! Easter Grin

UnnecessaryFennel · 02/04/2018 09:39

Hi bug, I'm fasting today - my second ever fast. Feeling great at the moment, full of energy and looking forward to the day. Have had a cup of tea with almond milk and three glasses of water - I'm planning to go through until dinner at around 7ish this evening and will probably have an omelette and some veg. That will be more or less a 24-hour fast (plus a bit of almond milk and probably a couple of cups of sustaining Bovril!)

It feels good to be giving my body a rest after a fair amount of chocolate yesterday Grin

I bought the Fast Diet book and read it all yesterday - was interesting to see that they don't talk about counting calories at all on NFDs. I know some people here do try to stay around TDEE and some don't - I think I won't bother (as I hate doing it) and just see what happens over the next month. If I'm no closer to getting into the Trousers of Truth then I might have a rethink, but for the time being I'd like to keep things as hassle-free as possible!

quackingduck222 · 02/04/2018 09:49

FGS not even 1 day off. 1 meal off I had and I went and did a 4 mile run before my dinner and 6.6lbs on. That’s more more than 2 weeks at Xmas. FD tomorrow

Fennel - yeah just like you say some MFP some don’t. I didn’t for ages only on FD but I didn’t know what calories were what. If your loosing then that’s great if you have a stall for a week or 2 may be worth trying it out.

Darcy good luck on your fast

Bug good luck on your B2B

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