5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

snailhunter / quacking
The eat what you like misconception goes right back to the August 2012 documentary.
Michael Moseley was not overweight so when he added in two fast days, he instantly had a deficit and lost weight.
Remember 5:2 was about health not weight loss - weight loss was a side effect

The juggernaut of 5:2 as a weight loss method came later (look at the really early threads to see what a small niche / clique we were)
but the I want it all still leaves people in the thrall of the food industry

hence why I brought in NO SNACKING

Actually, here is an interesting sign of how much the advice has changed .......

When BigChocFrenzy first joined the threads, she had always been told to pre-load
ie have protein / carbs before a gym session so that the blood sugar did not crash

once I had pointed out that exercising without eating breakfast had not killed me over the previous ten years she gave it a go .....
and everybody else (including the researchers) followed suit
and fasted exercising was born

TiP wow that’s incredible. And now we’re all following suit with the fasted excersize.

The no snacking rule is a great one.

So between you BCF and the original posters of the thread you’ve all basically written the book.

So between you BCF and the original posters of the thread you’ve all basically written the book.
Some of us are quoted in the original book

Thanks quacking and snailhunter - good to know I'm on the right track! FD going ok so far, am on my second cup of Bovril, which I'm finding great because it's tasty and savoury enough to feel as if I am actually having something to eat.

I've tried to read all the links etc so apologies if I'm asking silly questions - but I'm assuming it's ok to stick to full fat, eat the skin of chicken, have butter, cheese and cream etc? Just as long as one doesn't go over calorie limits? I'm ok with limiting amounts but would really, really struggle to have to move to low-fat stuff!

Fennel - absolutely full fat all the way!

I don't have full fat anything. I am a full-fat cheese butter, milk, cream and yogurt person and I couldn't realistically follow any diet that banned them. I just adjust calories to fit NFDs - so one small pot of full-fat Greek yogurt rather than a big pot of low-fat. My TDEE is 1734 calories a day so that's what I try to stick to on NFDs. You might find it helpful to track calories on MFP for the first week or so of NFDs if you're not used to thinking in terms of calories - I track everything and have done so since I started - but lots of people here don't. Whatever works for you!

Aaargh, I want an edit button! That should of course read I don't have LOW FAT anything...

Fennel
The joy of 5:2 is that its all about real food and real meals.
Whatever dietary habits you have (halal, vegan, gluten free, omnivore etc etc etc ) can be fitted into the basic premise of

Eat well a couple of times a day
NO SNACKING
Drink plenty of water

Welcome back, Mship You have maintained very well over winter.

Congrats on your SV and milestone weight, slinky
That's why you were plateaued - it was a hard set point because you hadn't been in the 57s since your 20s

Well done on your milestone too, snail
You'll soon be in the 9 stone somethimgs

You don't want to carry an elephant's penis with you, MrD
So that can be a big milestone and of course dropping into a lower BMI class, but set lots of mini-milestones too

Well done on your NSV avoiding late night junk, lawyer
You listened to your tum and it told you it was full of good food.

Welcome, fennel Sounds like 5:2 should suit you very well
Main change for a fasting WOL is no snacking between meals

I suggest you aim for 500-800 on FDs but just eat sensibly on NFDs without counting

• most folk can lose like this, providing they are not stuffing themselves, overdoing junky carbs / booze or snacking.

You can review after say 2 weeks and tweak if necessary, or continue if you are satisfied with progress.

Mosely's "Low Carb Mediterranean" would probably suit you most days:
his version recommends eating beans/peas/lentils often, daily if you like, because they are proven to help stabilise blood sugar.
also natural Greek yoghurt full-fat and no restrictions on carrots
He recommends keeping within 2 portions fruit per day, but this can be apples, pears, tangerines etc, not just berries.
Imo, a healthier and more sustainable WOE than standard low carb

NoWay The 5 NFDs are "normal" eating, so that might mean a roast lunch, or dinner at a Turkish restaurant like Lawyer.
You should not feel stuffed, but also shouldn't be hungry unless you are eating too many carbs, especially sugay / junky ones.
Do make sure not to snack between meals

It sounds like your "normal" may be well over TDEE - 5:2 usually gives a fair bit of leeway over;
However, some folk have got used to eating several hundreds over TDEE, so 2-3000 in a week, which is the FD deficit gone.
Easily done, with food being pushed at us all day, from all directions.
The problem is usually junk / booze, but is sometimes just portion size.
Calculate your sedentary TDEE, then mfp for a full week, to check for calorie bombs.

Yes, you can enjoy full fat foods, fennel
5:2 fits with any eating preference - "normal" anything goes / Mediterranean / low carb / low fat / paleo / vegan / ..

Whatever works for you.
Personally, I've never counted cals on NFDs
and once I'd been fasting a couple of months, I could guestimate the FDs too, so I haven't counted any cals for years
(I'm a longterm maintainer, like TIP)

iirc, you are the same, TIP ?

re not counting, I mean

Thanks everyone, really encouraging stuff!

I'm pleased with how I've managed my first FD - just two cups of Bovril, two of tea with almond milk, and several glasses of water so far. I'm looking forward to dinner but I'm not starving or anything - this feels very do-able.

I think I'll probably not fast again until Monday - it seems unnecessarily harsh to try a fast on Easter Sunday - but I'll ensure I don't overdo it on the chocolate. And then probably Weds next week, and then dp and I are away for a few days so FDs seem unlikely... it's fantastic to have such flexibility though.

Good advice to MFP for a bit too - I really have no clue about calories so will need to re-educate my thinking a bit, but hopefully I'll soon be in the swing of things.

This is exciting!

That's an excellent 1st FD, fennel

bigchoc
my name changes by one letter every month or so but it will always add up to TiP
I've found it a useful method to stop people getting carried away with advanced search

Welcome Fennel and well done on your first fd! I think the sound of it is much more scary than the reality. Yes, you might be hungry a few times in the day but if it's only only one day it seems very do-able. I'm like you in lots of ways, I got to my ideal weight low carbing but the thought of a life without humous/sushi/ sweet potato or the odd chip if I really want it wasn't realistic for me.

I try to follow a blood sugar/ low gi type diet in the week and then allow more flexibility at the weekends- one thing I found very tough about strict low carb was how much just one portion of higher carb food impacted it's effectiveness.

BCF can you talk to me about set points please? Every half pound is a massive slog at the moment. I've lost loads, and I'm happy - but I still want to loose a bit more. I know it get tougher when you get closer to goal but...meh. BMI is currently around 22.5.

My average at the moment is about 2lbs down per month, and it's been this way since January. Am I being unrealistic thinking it should be more?

Just finished a Mini FD today - closing at about 850-900 kcals.

Oh btw peachy is it you who has the Options hot chocolate? I've tried one last night and yum. I picked it over a glass of red wine - I deserve medal for that show of willpower I think!

Thank you everybody.feeling good.

Fennel sounds like you have nailed the FD. The best thing about this way of life is the flexibility.

No way don't lose heart. As you can see from my earlier posts I too have had slow weight loss/plateau/jump up. I know it is easier to say this once there has been a loss. It will move for you too BCF as always give great advice. Sending you lots of virtual strength.

I think I have finally turned a corner and am getting better! Yay!! I think I’ve been coughing and ill (with first cold and then flu) for almost 4 weeks! . Jeeeez that is long.

I have a question for those with kids... do you do fast days around them - I mean when they are at home? And how do you do it? Mine are 3.5 and 5 and very very aware of what goes on around them. I don’t feel comfortable fasting around them/not eating meals with them like I normally would....

I can skip breakfast without too much hassle but I think I am worried they will question me if they don’t see me eat lunch or dinner with them....

You have made amazing changes to your body, bug
However, at BMi 22.5, you can expect to lose a lot more slowly than when you were overweight
So 2lb per month is fine;
it's quite common to lose say the last 7 lb at 1lb per month

ntbo, you won't have much excess fat, so it more difficult for your body to access it for burning as fuel
Also, at this BMI, some of your remaining bodyfat may be "stubborn fat"

Fat cells have 2 types of cell receptors:

• alpha adrenergic receptors (store fat) - stubborn fat
• beta adrenergic receptors (release fat) - ordinary fat

These measures help burn stubborn fat:

• Keep within NHS alcohol guidelines
• Cut down on sugary treats, deep-dried food, also carby junk like pizza, crisps
• Do HIIT at least 2 x weekly, e.g. Shred, spin class, rope skipping, or Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes at home, on 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33* OP
• Do fasted training - this can be short sessions if you prefer

underpants I've no DC, but it's usually possible to disguise fasting by doing meals that naturally have separate protein, sauce / gravy, starchy carbs, veg
and doing a variety of veg dishes, so your plate can be heaped but mostly veg - which you truthfully say is because you are trying to boost your health

• In your case, with weeks of flu & snot, it's very plausible you want to boost your immune system, to get fit again.

e.g. salad lunch:
you have lean protein e.g. prawns / tuna with a big leafy mixed salad dressed with lemon or vinegar
They have additionally bread / potato salad, probably much smaller salad, mayo

e.g. roast beef dinner:
Your plate has lean meat, 3 different kinds of veg, horseradish sauce
The DC have additionally roast spuds, Yorkshire, gravy, with less veg probably

Thanks BCF that's reassuring and just what I needed to hear. I'm on the edge of being disheartened and just going into maintenance now - but I'll keep going for a while longer and try and get to goal.