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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
MazDazzle · 17/04/2018 21:00

Well done on all of those steps noway! That’s good going.

I out some of my favourite clothes in to get altered today. I have a dress, a couple of tops and a shirt, which are now too big, but I really like the cut and style. I’d never really thought of this as a way to extend my wardrobe, but a friend says she does it all the time. They should be ready by the end of the week.

Have had a good NFD today: didn’t eat until after twelve (lunch was soup, half a bread roll and fruit) then had an early dinner (steak, asparagus & mushrooms followed by a bowl of berries and 2 squares of chocolate). I’ve managed to ditch the 81% and now enjoy the 90% just as much. I used to really enjoy Lindt Lindor, but now I find them far too sickly.

Well done on your SV Cheshire!

MazDazzle · 17/04/2018 21:02

Smiled it’s probably better to use the calculator in the OP to work out your TDEE. Sometimes MFP is a bit out.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 22:20

gobble I recommend you stick to Mosely's advice about just one level lower than you think
If you have a significant deficit on NFDs too, then this becomes dieting everyday and hence probably unsustainable.

Try TDEE calculated for moderate activity level - or indeed just follow the 5:2 NFD tips I posted, without calorie counting - and review progress after 2 weeks.

Your TDEE is high, so you should lose at a very decent rate like that.
Those who usually have to be careful are the ones with TDEE 1500 or less.

smiled Mosely's TDEE calculator is pretty good, based on the most reliable of the published equations.
I recommend using the value it produces, if you want a target.

Also, mfp may give a calorie target for a standard diet with a daily 4-500 deficit, i.e. too few for 5:2 NFDs.

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/04/2018 06:56

Morning all, nfd here today as we have cake at work Grin

Unexpected and unwelcome side effect of fasting is that I am waking up between 4-4.30am needing the loo and can't get back to sleep, I already get up ridiculously early at 5.30am so that lost hour is being felt by teatime :-(

UnnecessaryFennel · 18/04/2018 07:02

Morning all! NFD for me today after my b2b. My body shape is definitely changing - stomach is flatter, a waist is appearing! I did end up with a banging headache last night and had to go to bed at about 9.30pm; however I feel fine this morning and looking forward to a NFD. Hope everyone has a lovely day and good luck to all those fasting.

UnnecessaryFennel · 18/04/2018 08:58

My scales have broken so I can't weigh myself. I think this is actually a good thing, and I had a two great NSVs whilst getting dressed this morning. I have a very pretty bra that I had to stop wearing because it had become uncomfortably tight around my back and the wires dug in. Guess what - it fits beautifully now! Plus, I'm wearing a top that I've not worn for ages because the sleeves were too tight around my upper arms...they're now fine Grin

Am not going to even attempt the Comptoir jeans yet because I don't want to get discouraged, but they're definitely on the horizon!

I think b2bs are the way to go for me - they seem to have a really noticeable effect. But I suppose the real test will be if I put these clothes on again at the end of this week and see how they fit then.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 18/04/2018 09:05

Morning everyone.
Second ever FD today. Bizarrely quite excited 😆
It's REALLY motivating to hear how well this is working for other people!
How long did it take to start seeing results?

littleladylawyer · 18/04/2018 09:06

Morning everyone.

fortythree I feel your pain- my 'get up for a wee' time is 2:30am, but I do normally manage to get back to sleep after thankfully!

fennel fab bra and top nsvs. I desperately need some new undies as mine have reached that horrid discoloured and saggy stage.

Loved my walk into work this morning, I did it in 30 mins rather than the 39 google maps suggests so feel like I was going at a good pace. Nfd here today and aiming for as much veg as possible.

Enjoy the sunshine everyone!

WreckTangled · 18/04/2018 09:07

Morning! I'm really cheery this morning as it's already 16 degrees and I've input all of today's planned food into MFP and it's come in at 584. It's a B2B so I'm pleased with that. Have veg sticks, humous, ff Greek yoghurt and blueberries with chia seeds plus an oxo for lunch. Dinner is fish cakes with veg and chilli sauce. Hope that's all ok.

UnnecessaryFennel · 18/04/2018 09:12

Sounds delicious wreck, hope your day goes well!

quackingduck222 · 18/04/2018 09:23

Fennel - fantastic NSV there. Balls to the scales, it’s how you feel. If your scales are broken try measurements instead.

Maz - I’ve done the same for some clothes that I want altered. The plan was learn to sew but not got round to it Grin

Bug - well done on your B2B.

No underpants - well done on your FD.

Purple - last stone took between 1St Jan - 2nd week in February it was very close to Valentine’s Day. I was ridiculously strict.
No sugar, treats alcohol and very little carbs.
Basically the BSD 5:2 (med style low carb on NFD) with 2 FDs
I think it was sped up as I had a gain of 6lbs over Xmas and that came off in the first week.

Welcome Gobble & Rising sun.

It’s a lovely day today, first day of ditching my coat. I’m prepared for comments at the school gate later as it will be the first day of weight loss reveal as I’ve been hiding under my coat and many layers recently.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 18/04/2018 09:37

Fennel well done on the NSVs! Great result.

Good luck to all fasting today.

Has anyone read the Dirty Diet by Kate Harrison (co-wrote 5:2 with Moseley)? I’ve recently read it and it makes sense to incorporate healthy gut foods with 5:2. Love kefir!

NoWayNoHow · 18/04/2018 10:16

Morning all. I am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY to see the sun. Can't wait to sit outside on my lunchbreak!

gobble sounds like you're already making some great first steps. Well done! That's a good TDEE so you should hopefully not need to count on NFDs

little, fennel and HLBug you're done for the week! Well done! And well done fennel on all your clothes NSVs - I'm like you, also just about starting to see my waist again. I also have a tiny head (don't laugh) so when I'm at my heaviest, my neck and face just mush into one and I look dreadful Blush but am slowly starting to recognise myself in the mirror again as my neck thins out!!

43 sorry to hear about the waking - why do you think it's the fasting that's having an impact? Is it extra water you're drinking to fill up?

wreck your food today sounds totally yummy and I'm slightly jealous...

Have all my meals planned out for today (NFD): egg & spelt toast for brekkie, roasted veg and couscous salad for lunch, and ratatouille & pasta salad for dinner.

Coming in 814cals so will be well under my TDEE (1,700) - should I make it a mini FD (having proper FD tomorrow) or should I pop to work cafe at lunch and grab some chicken skewers to up my protein intake as I think it's a bit too low today... Thoughts?

HLBug · 18/04/2018 11:43

Well, this whooooosh is the gift that keeps on giving - 2lb (!) off this week and now sitting at 9st 1lb. Wowzers.

quackingduck222 · 18/04/2018 12:47

OMG bug congratulations that’s fantastic.

purpleviolet1 · 18/04/2018 13:49

Fennel fab nsv's!

Quacking that's bloody amazing. You are my inspiration!

BCF I never suffered from Constipation at my lowest weight before; is it just a side effect of the fasting or is it something to do with my body getting used to this weight and 'holding on' - it's not sore but uncomfortable until it finally decides to be the day that its going to pass

Boldly I've not read it but I have moselys version of the gut diet on my shelf which is similar I've heard. I'll read it eventually ....

Bug that is amazing! You have basically caught up with me and you were behind me to begin with! I was 8st 12.7lbs this morn

littleladylawyer · 18/04/2018 14:03

Woo well done bug! That's amazing, you must be thrilled.

noway I'm picturing you with a teeny tiny pea head! I would probably add some chicken or other lean protein to your food today, even then it's still going to be well under and still a mini.

I'm so sad to be stuck in the office on such a lovely day! Working from home tomorrow though so will try to set myself up in the garden and get some much needed vitamin d.

WreckTangled · 18/04/2018 14:11

What's the deal with mini fast days? Is it just a bonus day or do you have to do anything in addition/in place of it?

MazDazzle · 18/04/2018 14:14

NoWay I didn’t realise there was a downside to having a small head. Mine is massive. I have a face like a satellite dish and insist at being at the back of every photo! I’m in a similar position to you today. Skipped breakfast as I usually do, had a huge lunch and have loads of calories left. Think I’ll just make it a mini-FD, as I don’t feel at all hungry. There might be a day later in the week when I’m starving so I’ll be glad of the extra calories then.

Well done bug. That’s just fantastic!

wreck your FD foods sound delicious.

quackingduck222 · 18/04/2018 14:21

Fantastic news purple your doing amazing.

Have you changed anything recently Purple? I go through stages on constipation. Usually when I’m being very good and lower carb it’s a issue but when I’m eating crap I crap lots more Blush
I would avoid taking lazitives tho as the pain from them is horrific.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2018 14:30

Well done on your shape NSV, Fennel That's lost bodyfat

Well done on your SV. bug
Excellent progress when you are already well within healthy BMI

noway On an NFD, that is very low, so I recommend you grab some protein if you are at all hungry
If you are not hungry though - which can happen if you are burning a lot of bodyfat for fuel - then don't eat

The headaches should go when you adapt to fasting
If you don't already, I recommend you glug a teasp Marmite say mid-morning and mid- afternoon, because that replenishes lost salt & minerals that can cause headaches or weakness.

purple Constipation is not a usual side effect of fasting - in fact some folk who just have one meal find the opposite !
Are you drinking 1.5 - 2 litre water daily ?
You can get constipated if you are drinking too little, whether on fasting or any other WOE
Fizzy crap or alcohol may not work as well to flush you out, so do boost water.

smiled The rate of loss is very individual, but nearly everyone has a good loss the first 2 weeks , before settling down to the more longterm rate, which roughly averages 1 lb weekly

Most important factor is how much you have to lose:
those with a lot can lose 3-4 lb weekly for the first month or so - the record here in the 1st week is 10-12 lb that 2 or 3 folk had
However, those within healthy BMI or nearly there, may only lose a couple of lb the first 2 weeks.

Next factor is whether your NFDs have a lot of alcohol, sweet junk and also snacking - which can all slow loss right down. Hence the 5:2 NFD tips we have developed - see my post upthread

43 Going to the loo is probably due to extra water - I suggest reducing that in the 2 hours before bed.
It can also happen if you are burning a lot of fat

Well done on your FD yesterday underpants

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2018 14:31

Oops sorry, headache tip was for fennel (c&p error)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2018 14:44

wreck A miniFD is 800-1000 cals, with the same rules as FDs:
no alcohol, no sweet junk, reasonably healthy food and no snacking,

+A mini might happen if you don't nail a planned FD
+A few folk do 3 miniFDs instead of 2 FDs, if they find fasting tough
+Sometimes people add a mini-FD to the 2 FDs if they have a heavy social week, or to boost loss if there is a special event coming up.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2018 14:46

Or on an NFD,you might find you don't have access to food (e.g. travelling) or you don't feel hungry.
Hence settle for a mini

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2018 14:50

boldly I have Mosely's most recent book, "The Clever Guts Diet" which discusses the topic well

  • I'd suggest getting that book if you are interested in the topic He explains and references the science very well.
OP posts:
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