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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
OohMrDarcy · 17/04/2018 07:39

Morning all

Kitchen closed on bang on 500 yesterday, had main meal at lunchtime and then went to my dance class in the evening which was great fun.

Cheshire don't let it get you down, you stopped at that, that is great!

Smiled, well done on completing first FD

yogi47 · 17/04/2018 07:42

Morning. Good luck all FDs today. Reasonable FD yesterday, kitchen closed at 571. NFD today but have Greek salad and fruit prepped for lunch, eggs, mushroom, spinach and tomato for tea and no snacking!!! Happy sunny Tuesday everyone.

TalkinPeece · 17/04/2018 09:03

Term has started.
My manic work months have started
Strict fasting every single week has restarted.
"Happy weight" by half term - fingers crossed Grin

Gobblebox · 17/04/2018 09:42

Hello. Can I join. I need all the support I can get. I have been lurking all year but having tried and failed to start I have completed my 1st FD. I have woken up scared to eat as I know that my trigger to gorge on sweet carbs things is sweet carbs things. So should I try to fast today as well because I’m apprehensive about my first NFDConfused. Thank you to the posters in advance.

Gobblebox · 17/04/2018 09:46

I should add I have 2-3 stone to shed. I have tried and failed lchf (3 daysBlush) and bsd (3 weeks). The fails end up with me eating what I like for about a month before I can face tackling my weight again. I am fed up of thinking about dieting and feel a new WOL is the only way forward for me.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/04/2018 10:42

welcome gobble and well done on your first FD - NFDs can sometimes be trickier but the fact that you know your triggers is a good start. Have you worked out your TDEE so that you know how many calories you have?

Someone with more experience will come along soon and give you more helpful advice, but I would say try and plan healthy meals with protein and an abundance of vegetables, also adopt the no snacking rule, so if you want a small treat then have it after your lunch / dinner, but then no snacking inbetween. This for me has been crucial and has helped me to stop looking for those afternoon snacks.

Read the thread and keep posting on here for advice and support - you can do this - remember to drink lots of water. Come back and let us know how you are getting on Smile

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 17/04/2018 11:34

Hi everyone. I won't be able to catch up on all the conversations after being awol for a couple of weeks, but wanted to wish everyone fasting today 'Good luck'. I had a few days if migraines whilst trying to pack for holiday, so ended up eating rubbish and not doing any exercise, and returned home at the weekend to find I've put 4 lbs on during the holiday 😲 Lots of eating out and cafe treats! My only consolation is that hubby has put more on than me 😉 So, trying to do the whole week with none/minimal carbs, and fasting tomorrow. It feels like such a setback, but it's all self-inflicted, so I shouldn't moan, and I did manage 2 hours of badminton last night so a good start on getting back in the saddle. Any advice on eating sensibly on holiday?
To all the newbies, this way-of-life definitely works, you just need to find ways round whatever trips you up as an individual, but there's lots of wise, experienced folk on here to hold your hand.

Pumperthepumper · 17/04/2018 12:10

Right, antibiotics finished, B2B today and tomorrow. Best of luck to everyone fasting today.

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 17/04/2018 12:15

Gobble welcome! I also have 2-3at to lose.
Well done on completing a FD! I'd suggest getting mfp (if you don't have it already) and tracking your TDEE and seeing what you can eat. Then work on the carbs and triggers slowly.

I'm in a really similar position to you! I totally understand what you've written and how you feel about food. But food is not the enemy. Take it slowly and aim at re-educating your palate. That's what I'm currently doing. Sugar and carbs are my absolute weakness.

I'm taking it slow and not being super strict with myself - but I am losing and my jeans are less tight!!! - but I'm concentrating on eating more protein to help reduce the want for sugar does that make sense?

Anyway, slowly slowly. Baby steps!

WreckTangled · 17/04/2018 12:28

I'm just tucking into my celery and cucumber sticks, couldn't last any longer!

Welcome gobble I'm on my first FD today, I think with NFD the key is, as others have said, planning your meals and no snacking.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 12:47

purple Now you are in the 8 stone somethings, progress will be slower, so a week where you lose a lb is very good.

Well done on your SV, Maz

That was a good FD yesterday, MrD

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 12:52

Welcome, Gobble Smile
With 2-3 stone to go, you can lose fairly quickly at first.

As with all newbies, I recommend for the first 2 weeks that you concentrate on nailing the FDs and don't count cals on NFDs.

Then review progress after 2 weeks - most 5:2ers can lose without counting on NFDs, but some need to use it temporarily to retrain portion size and amount of treats, booze etc

Just keep to good 5:2 habits on NFDs:

  • NO snacking, ever Have any treats, lattes, alcohol even fruit only as part of a meal
  • Be sensible about treats - have no more than one moderate portion per NFD
  • Keep within NHS alcohol guidelines
  • Drink plenty of water
OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 17/04/2018 12:52

Thanks BCF always good to hear of your experience / wealth of knowledge

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 12:53

Frazzled Good habits on holidays are the same as on NFDs above

OP posts:
UnnecessaryFennel · 17/04/2018 12:56

Hmmm, feeling a wee bit hungry today but will keep swigging the water. Wondering whether I might pop out and grab some miso soup or Bovril/Marmite though...could probably do with the salt etc.

CheshireSplat · 17/04/2018 12:59

Hi all.

I think I'm addicted to this thread!!

Came in to say good luck to everyone fasting today as I was a bit "me, me, me' last night. I was 1 lb lighter this morning compared to yesterday morning, so the bread didn't push me too far off track. Phew! And I didn't cry. And no small children are buried under any patios (although that would be a good workout....)

4 hours of train journeys today (all 1st class, feeling very spoiled) and I've turned down a muffin, a full English, another muffin, a pastry and a biscuit!

The only thing I've accepted is a tuna melt Panini for lunch. And I'd brought an apple.

I've been musing. It's hard for me and lots of us to lose weight. Lots of people are slim in the face of challenges from Big Food and constant availability. And I just really like food. 5:2 has changed my outlook which is amazing, but a few months ago I would keep eating even if my sstomach hurt because I like the taste in my mouth so much. My pleasure receptors beat my pain receptors. And that got me wondering how many slim people just aren't that fussed about food and how many have to work really hard at it.

UnnecessaryFennel · 17/04/2018 13:55

cheshire I've really started to think of this WOE as 'how naturally slim people eat'. There's no magic to it, I guess, just an awareness of the difference between head hunger and tummy hunger, and an understanding of the fact that, just because nowadays food is always available, that doesn't mean we are obliged to always be eating!

I always felt instinctively that, eg skipping breakfast was probably a perfectly ok thing to do, (despite all the messages we get given from advertisers etc) and noticed that the earlier I started eating in the day, the more hungry I tended to feel. But it's been a real revelation to me to realise that, actually, I feel fine and function perfectly well on just one meal a day (as long as I drink plenty).

Nothing bad happens - I don't faint, or cry with hunger, or go into 'starvation mode'. I just get on with my day, having eaten a bit less than usual. I love it!

Sorry that was a real ramble but I think what I'm trying to say is that I think it's important to normalise this WOE/WOL. Because it is normal - it's our standard eating habits that have become skewed.

Anyway as you might tell I've just had a Marmite drink and feel great 🤣

NoWayNoHow · 17/04/2018 15:44

Welcome gobble - I know the feeling too well of being too scared to eat in case it turns into scoffing. Follow bcf's advice for your first couple weeks and see how you get on.

Maz well done on your SV. I also normally gain during TOTM and don't often even bother weighing during it, but I walked SO MUCH last week (28,000 steps Thursday!) and didn't feel as swollen as normal, so thought I'd chance it. I have M.E. which makes aerobic exercise a non-starter for me, but I do get on better with walking than I used to and I think it made a huge difference when I was on leave last week as I'm not stuck behind a desk and can just get on with it.

bcf I've just realised from your post that lattes = snacks! Oh no! I've been inadvertently snacking 2-3 times a week! Fail... Blush

Hope all you FDs and B2Bs are doing okay and chugging that Marmite!

WreckTangled · 17/04/2018 16:29

Just about to make dinner then the kitchen will be closed. I'm really short tempered with the dc Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 16:49

Well done on your SV, Cheshire

You, fennel and many on these threads are gaining understanding about the amount and type of food your body needs to be healthy

So, food that hasn't been through a heavily industrialised process
Eat meals, nothing between - it is healthy to feel hungry before your next meal; that's how people lived for millennia, even how I grew up (I'm not millennia old, btw ! )

That WOE is mostly not what Big Food are pushing, because it would reduce their profits

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2018 16:52

NoWay Snacks are anything between meals that contain more than about 10 calories (so Marmite, Bovril are ok)
That includes lattes, alcohol, rice cakes, fruit, even veg - especially with a dip - anything with calories will raise insulin and hinder fat-burning

OP posts:
TalkinPeece · 17/04/2018 17:20

cheshire / Fennel
At my gym are lots and lots of slim older ladies
only a very, VERY few of them are naturally slim
the rest of us are careful and disciplined about both food and exercise.
But when the discipline becomes total HABIT it becomes invisible to outsiders.

TalkinPeece · 17/04/2018 17:23

Noway
I admit (and bigchoc knows) that I mainline tea even on fast days
but I have worked out that tea with semi skim milk all day takes up about 80 calories of my allowance

I dread to think how many calories are in coffee shop offerings

WreckTangled · 17/04/2018 17:31

Kitchen closed!

MFP is working now, I'm coming in at 285 calories though, is that too few? Should I quickly scoff a couple of rich teas?!

snailhunter · 17/04/2018 17:54

Congrats wreck! Have you got anything high protein? Greek yogurt? Would prob be better than a sugary thing as you might find yourself on a big old sugar crash from biscuits later, and that's the last thing you need when you've done so well.

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