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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
snailhunter · 12/04/2018 13:52

Cheers for the advice, bcf, much appreciated.

I've been thinking about this and I've realised that I've actually been giving myself less credit in losing a stone than I should have.

I've been thinking that MFP has played a much bigger role than it has: In fact, my own determination and the brilliant advice and support on this thread have helped me succeed, not a bunch of numbers on a screen.

I need to have confidence and self-belief in myself and the WOE, not rely on MFP. So sod it, from today, I'm off it. I'll continue to use it to track my weight loss but not for recording food, and will just stick to the Rules.

MazDazzle · 12/04/2018 14:20

That’s what I did purple! I put on all the weight I lost, and then some.

Major NSV today! I dug out all of my size 12 clothes that have been packed away since I got pregnant with DC3 and they fit! Granted, they don’t fit comfortably, but I’d say another 7lb off and they’d be fine. Grin

littleladylawyer · 12/04/2018 14:51

snail that's a really positive realisation and mind set. You're so right- you have done this yourself, with the support of this lovely thread.

I've been using mfp as a crutch rather than truly following the WOE- while it's helped identify issues with portion size/ unexpected calorie bombs I need to take the plunge and believe in my own choices. I can't count my food forever and don't want to let myself get obsessed. I'm with you- after today I'm going to stop logging!

Interesting reading the bmi discussions- mine is right at the bottom end of the scale as I have a tiny frame, no boobs and not enough muscle. I think it's a good general guide but our bodies are far too individual to rely totally on a standard chart.

snailhunter · 12/04/2018 16:40

Just deleted MFP on my phone. Very pleased with myself! Yes, lawyer, let us throw off the shackles of MFP and rejoice in our freedom! Freedom!

purpleviolet1 · 12/04/2018 17:36

Well done snail!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/04/2018 18:02

Go for it, snail, lawyer ! Smile

Well done on your size 12 NSV, Maz

purple Better to start at goal weight and be in the best shape for ttc
rather than put on weight when you are already heavier than you prefer.
It does save you time later, less to lose

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/04/2018 19:33

Well done maz
Fd here finished on 522 I needed some extra pickled onions and gherkins on my salad Grin hope everyone else has had a successful Fd. Feeling so heavy and hefty though, shouldn't I be feeling lovely and light after a Fd? Hope the scales are kind to me tomorrow

Paint my nails then an early night for me :-)

HLBug · 12/04/2018 19:41

quacking have you tried tween ranges? I know, I know - but have you? I've got a couple of things from M&S kids recently that are fab (and cheap!) Age 13/14 and 15/16 are basically a 6 and an 8 respectively I reckon. River Island and New Look teen ranges also maybe worth a look?

boldlygoingsomewhere · 12/04/2018 19:55

FD finished and just about 600 - bit higher but I’m slowly working my way down. My general feeling is that if I end between 500-650, that’s ok.

BMI is interesting - I’m not going to be tiny at the end despite only being 5’4’’. My rib cage has expanded since pregnancy - don’t think I’ll be super slim unless I have a couple of ribs removed. Grin

UnnecessaryFennel · 12/04/2018 20:11

Well I'm not going to even try and pretend that I've had a FD or even a mini today Grin

But I'm definitely up for one tomorrow. Working from home so I'll have more chance to keep up with the water etc - I think that makes a huge difference.

quackingduck222 · 12/04/2018 20:38

Well done on the deleting MFP does it feel liberating? Hmm that does sound appealing I think I may consider this but just carry on weighing my cheese as yoghurt as I can’t trust myself.

Bug - I have started having a browse in the teens section I find the new look teen range quite nice. Slightly short in the arms but not fussed about that. I have found too many belly tops about recently tho.

Although I made a startling discovery the other day, bought a few shirts in the teens section of primark lovely and so cheap but noticed a child about 3 wearing the same shirt in a cafe Blush I had no idea they also did the same items for younger kids.

snailhunter · 12/04/2018 20:45

It does feel a bit liberating, actually! As does finishing my FD today - last one before kids go back. So much easier without them around eating and bickering! Kitchen closed at around 450, I estimate. Swopped my Vanilla skyr for full fat Greek yog and a tiny bit of honey. YUM.

OohMrDarcy · 12/04/2018 20:49

Evening all

Kitchen closed on 355 today, just not been hungry Shock

Have had a lovely long soak in the bath and I'm now heading to bed with my kindle ridiculously early... Have done so much driving this week for work in a bit wiped, at home tomorrow so all good.

Well done to all the successful fasts, and let's cross our Fingers that the scales are kind tomorrow!! Grin

MazDazzle · 12/04/2018 20:49

Thank you! I’m so chuffed. Interestingly, I’ve pretty much been the same weight for the last 6 months, but when I tried them on not long ago they wouldn’t go near me. Goes to show that the scales don’t show the full picture.

Calorie counting apps like MFP can be almost addictive. I found it really tough deleting the weight watchers app (which had a monthly fee!). I started WW before 5:2, but just couldn’t let it go. I was obsessed with logging everything. It’s a bit like a comfort blanket. MFP can be the same. Good luck snail and lawyer! Enjoy your freedom.

2nd day of b2b complete. I didn't eat anything all day and was unable to finish my dinner. Looking forward to spending the last few days of the Easter holidays, before getting back to the grind on Monday.

Well done to all of the other Thursday fasters!

MazDazzle · 12/04/2018 20:51

There’s a lot of Greek yogurt in the fridge with my name on it, snail! I’ll have it tomorrow served over fruit and seeds scatterrs on top. I shall dream of it tonight! Grin

MazDazzle · 12/04/2018 20:51

pot!

OohMrDarcy · 13/04/2018 06:56

Morning all

1.5lb down for me breaking through the next stone barrier nicely. Total loss now 1st 1.5lb . I'm chuffed with that given my Doritos and wine the other night.

Thinking about all the mfp talk... I used it solidly for the first month, but not so much now. I use it most days, but don't log everything- just to work out something I'm not sure of are. Trying to get myself into good habits. Will probably use it for a little while every time TDEE drops significantly to help retrain too.

Big well done on the clothes NSV maz!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/04/2018 07:17

Excellent SV mrdarcy
1lb off today for me so 11lbs in total so far, slow but steady wins the race eh Smile
My goal for whats left of April is to get into the 12s ... I'm currently 13.3 so totally doable.

Goal for this weekend is no snacking and no alcohol on Sunday.

Good luck friday faster's. ..

OohMrDarcy · 13/04/2018 07:33

Well done 43.

I'm chuffed that through a holiday period I've continued losing,.even if slower. My target for rest of April is to nail an ace couple of weeks NFDs as well as the FDs and if possible hit the next half stone marker... or as near to it as possible anyway!

I also have a 10% loss goal coming up probably in May realistically.... I know that is a big one for health so looking forward to that too.

quackingduck222 · 13/04/2018 07:51

Well done on your FD snail, Darcy and going somewhere

Bug your target weight and BMI sound great. It does stillgive you room either side if you do change your mind.

Maz well done on your scale victory. No the scales don’t tell the full picture. And well done on your B2B.

Well done Darcy on your loss and also into the next weight category. Great stuff

Well done 43 on the scale victory as well. Some great losses today. Slow and stead most definitely wins the race.

Little lady - well on on standing by your own choices that’s a fantastic mindset to have. And thanks for the recommendation fro H&M I will check them out.

Snail - I totally agree with you re MFP, it is hard to let go especially when you’ve had success with it. I think I’m going to keep it on my phone as just use it as and when and when I buy new items.

Good luck to all the Friday fasters.

snailhunter · 13/04/2018 08:13

Well done losers! I’ve stayed at 9.12 which was expected as TOTM imminent. Third week of no losses so expecting losses to resume next week as they have in the past after plateau. Enjoying no MFP and yes, it can be v addictive. I deleted FB and Twitter off my phone at new year - don’t want to get addicted all over again to something else!

TheMShip · 13/04/2018 09:37

I'm off MFP now except for checking stuff occasionally when I'm not sure. It's working pretty well. Final FD of 4:3 (sort of AFD) today and it's definitely the hungriest I've been all week! But I'll cope, not long till the weekend.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/04/2018 10:38

Well done on your SV, MrD and on your stone milestone
Very encouraging that you even lose at a decent rate over holidays

10% weight loss as your next milestone - that will be major - and you have probably nailed the 5% loss already, which also helps Smile

Well done on your SV too, 43
12 something by EOM is a reasonable target
Just be mindful of booze, especially at weekends and (for everyone !) no snacking / grazing EVER

Maz 5:2 has probably improved your body composition, i.e. %fat: % lean mass
Intermittent fasting often does this, because it is a (beneficial) loading on the body, even when you don't increase exercise
Muscle weighs more than the same volume of fat. So as you lose fat and increase muscle density, you lose inches, but not necessarily lb.

Many folk have noticed that they are "smaller" on 5:2 than they were at the same weight in the past.

snail, lawyer, Mship You all sound determined and independent-minded people, which is very positive.

OP posts:
yogi47 · 13/04/2018 10:43

Not feeling it this week for first time in 9 weeks... lots of stress at work and no time to plan. Amazing what a difference that makes - it means I've eaten more bread and a few biscuits (5 not a whole packet) and quick snacks have been consumed!! STS after b2b earlier in week (Wednesday) but then weighed today and nearly 2lb gone back on. HOWEVER I am sitting here doing my shopping list and planning for next week!! Need to remember the longer term picture. Hopefully will have my motivation back next week!!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/04/2018 11:10

yogi That gain will be mostly retained water due to excess carbs, plus possibly some undigested food hanging around.
A good week on track should get rid of that
For motivation, think what you have achieved so far Smile - don't waste your hard work.

Your problem is obviously the NFDs - snacks, also probably too little veg & too many starchy carbs
Focus on no snacking between meals - that can really hinder fat-burning

So plan 3-4 adequate meals each day - with bread at only one of them - and make sure you don't eat between;
also no lattes or booze except with a main meal.

You will feel fuller for longer if you

  • boost veg and
  • swap white carbs to complex ones which don't spike insulin and which take longer to digest.

In particular,

  1. cut down on sugary foods, specially "treats" - these should be more occasional, not daily
  2. move to boiled / baked potato and away from mash or deep-fried food
  3. reduce the amount of foods with heavily processed wheat, because the type of wheat has massively changed since the 1960s from what people had consumed for millenia

e.g. porridge (the kind you cook) instead of breakfast cereal
wholegrain or rye bread instead of white, brown
brown / red rice instead of white
quinoa instead of white pasta

OP posts: