5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I would love a go on a Boditrax machine Tip, but there’s nothing like that near me. It must be fascinating, especially the metabolic age.

Wow South at 10st 10 you must be very lean!

underpants I’m slightly taller than you. If I ever see 11 something on the scales I’d be thrilled. Right now it seems like a long way off. It isn’t helped by the fact that every time I get near my target I put on 7lb!

Didn’t get much sleep last night. Don’t know if it’s that or the b2b FD, but I have a splitting headache. Had yogurt, berries & seeds for breakfast (350 cals) and cream cheese, houmous, crackers & an apple for lunch (400 cals). Probably chicken salad for dinner.

50lb in only 8 months is incredible bug! Well done.

Mship Several 5:2ers have found that this WOL stops their IBS symptoms.
iirc, TIP or her DH being one of them < HI, TIP (SHOUTS) >

Thanks everyone, I'm suitably chuffed just goes to show you, it can be done. No real exercise to speak off (shameful ) just a lovely 5:2 side effect.

NoWay I'll remind you of this in October when you'll be celebrating the 9-somethings yourself

Maz I'm not sure I'm that lean. Very slim on top but have a huge arse and thighs (14). I reckon I carry 90% of my weight in that area. Would love to be a size 12 all over. At moment, 10/12 on top 12/14 on bottom

HLBug excellent, you brilliant thing! 50lbs is loads, you must feel like a different person!

I’ve been away on holiday this week, was semi-sensible and have put on 0.75lbs, which I’ll take. BUT I’ve got tonsillitis again 😢 and another round of antibiotics 👎.

Actually, while on holiday we ate out a fair bit and I had really horrible stomach pains - has anyone else had that? Im convinced my stomach has shrunk since starting 5:2 but I didn’t eat THAT much, probably quite a lot of fat though and definitely more alcohol than I’ve had for a while. Can’t decide if I should get it checked out or not.

Yup MShip
DH has not needed fybogel or painkillers for the last 5 1/2 years
fasting not just cleared it up
but reset his system - such that we can eat multiple times per day on hols etc and he stays fine

HLBug
Have you done the ultimate progress check ?
Get a rucksack or suitcase ....
load it up with tins of food and heavy packets till it weighs what you have lost .....
carry it up and down the stairs three times ......
now put it back down
how good does that feel ?

The kids are having a movie night with home made cookie dough and I’m resisting, resisting, resisting!

July seems like a good target TheMShip. I’ve just looked back over my weight loss tracking and I first got under 13 stone (since having DC3) way back in Sept! Have been swinging between 12 and a half & 13ish stone ever since! Though I was over 15 stone after DC3, so have done well to keep off 2 stone I suppose.

underpants I have no bum at all, narrow hips and waist. However, my legs and arms are rather chunky and I have shoulders a rugby player could be proud of!

That's amazing for your DH, TIP! I have attempted to reintroduce both wheat and dairy twice, at the 6 month and 1 year marks, a week apart for each food type. All four tries resulted in an IBS attack, though not as bad as before I was on 5:2.

Maz that's brilliant, and you're doing it with three kids too! I've only got the two, and they're enough of a handful. Doing a weekend FD today was tough, I am definitely more active when I've got both monkeys to run after, and today DH was at an activity most of the day.

My weight is fairly evenly distributed apart from carrying too much around my middle. I'm another of the enormous boobage tribe - was chuffed to bits to be fitted as a 36FF recently after years in the G, H, and even J (breastfeeding!) zones. I was 38HH when starting 5:2. I'd love to get a reduction done, but I won't even start to make enquiries until I see what size they get down to with weight loss on its own.

MShip
I'd love to get a reduction done, but I won't even start to make enquiries until I see what size they get down to with weight loss on its own.
A friend of mine lost as much weight as she could and then had the op over Christmas one year
they took 1lb of breast tissue (so no fat) off each and she has never looked better
a lot of her back pain cleared up at the same time - funny that

Wow bug amazing :-)
mship I am 5ft 7 ins and currently 13st 4lb... would love to get back into the 12s, haven't seen them for a long time but ultimate goal is 11st 5lb which is my weight when I got married. As you say it's the upper end of the healthy bmi but I have never managed much lower than that though would love to be in the 10s.
Does anyone else have to lose a lot before they drop clothes sizes? I can range from 12 stone to 13.3lb and still be in a size 14. I am also large of nork (36ff) and have shrunk from a g cup...

pumper It's not unusual for your stomach to object to having very different food & drink - and consuming much more than usual - on holiday.
You may have had something dodgy in one meal; not that unusual either for it to only effect one person.

Additionally, several 5:2 ers have posted that their tolerance for junk and booze, also bingeing, has dropped sharply, presumably because their digestive system is no longer used to it.
That's actually positive, because it reinforces healthier habits

However, if the pains continue more than a few days after you have returned from holiday, then see your GP - all sorts of possibilities, like appendix …

Just catching up after a busy few days. Couldn't just read and run without saying huge congrats, esp to bug and Darcy - inspirational and so motivating for me!! Happy weekends and enjoy your successes!

Thanks BCF, I’ll keep an eye on it.

36FF here too! By the end of the day I get pain across my upper back and neck, which often leads to a headache. I’ve never really considered that it could be my boobs that’s causing it.

fortythree you def. have to change your username now! Occasionally I’m a size 12, especially as I get nearer 12 stone, but generally I’m a 14. My DH is tall and slim, but would never fit into a size medium, because that’s not his frame size, regardless of how slim he is. Even as a gangly 12 year old I was still a size 12.

I’ve been kept awake by a stinking headache again. Found some stretches online. Feel some relief already.

Oh dear hope those stretches managed to alleviate your headache maz and that you got some sleep.

Yes I think I have a large frame also. I sometimes look at other people who are tiny and wonder how their organs are even fitted in!!! A wee while before I can change my username though I think

Hi all,
I have been lurking for a few weeks and finally decided to say hi. So much inspiration here and amazing advice thank you!

I had a baby a year ago and have lost most of the weight through monitoring calories and increasing my exercise but I find it a pain to do mfp everyday so I think this will be more sustainable. Before I got pregnant I used to do the 5:2 so am used to the principles.

I’m after a bit of advice really. I my last 2 fast days haven’t gone very well. Yesterday’s was going ok until my sons dinner at 5 and he was just picking at the food I gave him and I ended up nibbling. I probably ended up at 800cals. Fast days at work are much easier! I felt really quite light headed during my one on Tuesday. I had a pret tuna salad at lunch (about 200cals) but around 3 I felt awful and ended up eating a nakd bar. I hadn’t slept well at all the night before, could that have been a factor? Also I find after fast days I don’t sleep as well, does that happen to anyone else?

Thanks in advance all x

Darcy - you earned that brunch. Decorating is hard work.

Going somewhere- you sound the exact same as me. I’ve been having a real test of TDEE lately. My sedentary is 1400. If I’m eating lowish carbs high protein and high fat I’ve managed to go upto 2200 with no gain. If I’m eating high carbs / sugar I really need to watch it. Fascinating stuff tho.

Noway - your goal is so achievable.

Mship- that’s fantastic re IBS symptoms.

Maz - well done on your B2B. Great stuff

Pumper- 0.75 after a holiday, wow that’s not much at all. Definitely agree to stomach shrinking. Sorry to hear about your tonsillitis again. Look after yourself.

Hello mrs stav- a lot of the fasters on here on there FDs have a cup of bovril / marmite off a spoon to help with that light headed feeling. It’s worth having a few eggs per boiled / ham slices to hand incase you feel like that. It does seem to pass in time when you get used to it.

800 cals is a great fast day. Your body needs time to adjust.

I’m off shopping today, last Time was just after I hit target so I was a bit reluctant to spend lots of money on clothes. Still at my happy weight range so going to treat myself to some decent jeans hopefully don’t loose shape. Also get some new bras as I wear the comfort ones and the elastic is too loose now they seem to stretch out over time.

Happy Sunday everyone

Thanks Duck! Good idea about having something’s to hand as I know grabbing sweet things isn’t going to help long term.

Have a good shopping trip!

Well done on your minimal holiday gain pumper, sorry to hear about the tonsillitis and stomach pains though. I sometimes get stomach cramps if I eat a meal that's quite fatty or carby- I think because my system isn't used to dealing with that kind of food so often.

Interesting to read about different body shapes- I have a very small frame and nothing to write home about in the boobs department!

Had an omelette with brown toast for lunch yesterday, then for dinner a sharing starter with satay, squid tempura, chicken in pandan leaves, and dim sum, then black cod with steamed jasmine rice for main. Was absolutely stuffed but it was delicious. Too many cocktails but we walked 13k over the day so I don't think it was too bad as a treat day. Need lots of veg to recover today I think!

quacking the jeans are looser... a way to go before they fall down though

maz my weight is all hips, bum, thighs and unusually large legs but there is a family history of women with leg vein problems. My hope is that if I stop being overweight i might have more “normal” shaped legs....

BCF I have a question, I’m 35 and I don’t think I’ve been a healthy weight since I was early teens, or possibly younger... does this help explain why I’ve dieted in the past but never managed to get below a plateau aroun 80kg? I was reading a post of yours - but now I cannot remember where - about weight loss and why some people find it harder to reach their goal and or maintain it.

And before I forget, bug wooohooo! 50lb is incredible! I’m excited by 1kg right now. I’m excited to keep going to reading your post helps!

Crikey, that sounds hard work, MrD

Today, after spin & some lifting, I've been enjoying a lovely sunny Rhine walk. Feels like way over the promised 23C
I hope 5:2ers in the UK are also enjoying Spring sunshine

Welcome, MrsStavrum

On FDs, to avoid headaches or feeling weak again, glug a teasp Marmite from the jar, mid-morning and mid-afternoon.
This will replenish lost salt & minerals, which can be depleted while your hody is getting used to fasting.

As duck says, have some boiled eggs or lean protein handy, in case you can’t hold out - a Naked Bar is more like a big dessert, not FD food.

To reduce hunger, on FDs and NFDs,
no snacking / grazing / nibbling - eat meals, nothing between
because
little pickers need bigger knickers

Also on FDs, stop eating DC leftovers
There is a rubbish bin in the kitchen, which shouldn‘t be you
You deserve your own food.

underpants It is indeed more difficult to lose if you have been overweight a long time - especially if it has been 2 stone (28 lb) or more - because then:

1. your body usually has a set point - or several set points - which are much higher than the weight you want.

The body resists going below set points, but as so many 5:2ers have found, fasting helps lower set points;
you do need patience and persistence, but you'll get there if you stay on track.

2. You are probably insulin-resistant, which means your body doesn't cope well with even ordinary portions of starches - and you are probably eating above the recommended portion size for pasta, rice, bread, potato etc

You may also be eating too much sugary crap and junk carbs - pizza, crisps, deepfried food etc- and your particular body likely has very little tolerance for them

I recommend you keep the FDs low carb - just protein and lots of veg -

and on NFDs, go lower GI for 3 months if you can:

• Cut out, or cut right down on the above mentioned sugary crap and junk carbs

• Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit; keep fruit to no more than 2 portions per NFD, none on FDs
  Go for low sugar fruit - berries, apples, pears etc - rather than bananas or mango

• Replace some of your starchy carbs by beans / lentils / peas which have some carbs,
  but are good for stabilising blood sugar

• Carb portion size per meal:
  No more than 80g cooked weight of rice / pasta / potato or 2 thin slices bread.
  Boost veg and protein.

• Replace white bread by wholegrain or rye bread, replace breakfast cereal by porridge (not the flavoured / instant type), replace white rice by brown / red rice, pasta by quinoa, potato by sweet potato and only boiled / baked, not mashed or fried.

Of course, the standard 5:2 rules of no snacking and NHS alcohol guidelines are even more important for you than for most folk

Gently build up your exercise if you can - shorter bursts of HIIt and lifting are better than long sessions.
If you are a beginner, start with a daily walk.
Short runs are maybe something to try later, when there is less weight on the joints.

If you are able, have a weekly spin class and pump class at the gym

Thanks so much BCF. Picking at DCs food is def an issue. I am trying very hard not to snack so that should help!! I will get some marmite to keep tucked away at work and some appropriate snacks!