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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 06/04/2018 20:04

South wow, 10st 10?! I'm 5'7" ish and I'm aiming at 11st (but that's miles off and there are lots of minis in between Grin) to see what that looks like and I think it would give me a healthy BMI if I've got my maths right Hmm

MAZ that was also sort of an answer to you - with the high ish goal...

Quacking this afternoon was much better. But I'll keep my marmite on standby Smile

I did step on the scales this morning (I couldn't resist post FD) and it's another 0.5kg off so hopefully that will stay as almost 1kg down when I weigh next week.

And I managed a gentle walk this morning. So this week I've done three good walks and one strength training session. Yay!! It feels good to be better but I'm not recovered yet. I'm still croaky and have a sore throat so I'm going slowly.

TalkinPeece · 06/04/2018 20:10

maz
One of the nice things with the Boditrax machine I use at the gym is that it looks beyond BMI

  • I focus on keeping my body fat percentage well within the healthy for my age
  • and keeping my metabolic age well below my real age

its why happy weight is so important : as it varies for each person
I'm currently 7lb above happy but still have all other stats healthy ...
you have to feel good FOR YOU as that is what matters long term

OohMrDarcy · 06/04/2018 21:29

Evening all,

Noway restarting my happy dance in your honour! Fab feeling isn't it!

Well done to all the fasters and b2bers everyone seems to be rocking it at the moment!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2018 21:38

We're in the groove Smile

OP posts:
southeastlondonmum · 06/04/2018 23:40

Pants. I have a significant birthday that I am aiming for. I haven't been that low since I got married ten years ago. My mobility was reduced last year and then I had surgery so used 5:2 to keep from gaining. Am motoring now

NoWayNoHow · 07/04/2018 07:23

Thanks for the dances bcf and darcy. I'm very pleased! 2st to go until the next bracket though (like many on this thread, I'm a bit of a short arse Grin . south I think you're one of the few exceptions! Like you, I also have a significant birthday this year to aim for - it really helps to have a target, doesn't it? I've not got very much time now, though (couple of months) and trying not to worry about what I can realistically achieve!

FD today as spending much of it on the road to fetch DS from GPs. Anyone got any good "on-the-go" service station ideas for a 300-400cal lunch? Have corn on the cob and salad planned for dinner which comes in just under 100cals...

TheMShip · 07/04/2018 07:25

Attempting a weekend fast day today. Was mostly ok on the not snacking yesterday but starving by bedtime and ate then. Need to increase my mealtime calories a little, was only at 1400 without the snacks and my TDEE is 1800.

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 07/04/2018 07:40

Wow, go weekend fasters!! noway it depends on the service station really, do you know what outlets they will have? I find some of the fresh soups really good - pret or m&s (though the latter's not really on the go), topped up with boiled or poached eggs.

I'm still struggling with NFD calories. Yday we arrived at my parents - so big meals, snacks, chocolates and wine to dodge. Or totally fail to Blush
Going to try be strict on no snacks today and have no booze, also have fewer carbs with meals.

I'm struggling to find my tdee though. if I use the calculator on here it's 1700, which surprised me as it would mean I'd been hugely overeating for years but then only put on a few kg. Some other calculators give as high as 2000 Confused. Anyone else had this problem?

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 07/04/2018 07:49

Just been catching up on thread, so many SVs, congrats everyone!!
Love all the evidence that this WOE relly works

HLBug · 07/04/2018 08:10

christmas I find the TDEE recommended in the OP to be the most reliable - what activity level are you putting in?

I have a pretty major SV to report this morning Grin 1lb off and now down to 9st 4lb. Now, 1lb off doesn't sound like a major SV...but what if I told you that takes me to 50lb total loss since starting this WOL last July? Now. That's pretty major, I think you'll agree. Feeling very happy.

Original goal was 10st 3lb, then I dropped it to 9st 7lb and now I'm aiming for 9st 2lb. Purple and quacking and my still wobbly bits are tempting me to keep going into the 8s though.

purpleviolet1 · 07/04/2018 09:01

Bug that's amazing!! ScHow tall are you? I'm 5"2.5 lol and I was 8 stone at my wedding. I used to fluctuate between 8-8.5 stone and I felt good with that weight so my aim is that.

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 07/04/2018 09:16

Wow bug 50lbs that's brilliant!

On the calculator I put in light activity which I think is about right. I walk a fair amount but exercise levels vary - usually HIIT 2-3 times a week for 20mins. I'm just curious because if it's true I've been eating 500 extra cals a day for many years - surely that can't be right?!

HLBug · 07/04/2018 09:28

Thanks guys. I'm 5'4" purple. 12st 12lbs when I started on here in July after DD was born.

purpleviolet1 · 07/04/2018 09:37

You've got a bit more height to play with bug so see how you get on and how comfortable you feel!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 09:39

Congrats on your 50lb milestone, bug
< enjoying the Happy Dance again, for the Multiple Marvellous Milestone weekend >

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 09:43

fairy This calculator seems the most reliable
If you have been eating 2000 instead of 1700 for some years, that would be 300 extra per day

However:

  • you may have over-estimated your intake - a small of people do this, but it happens
  • you may have uner-estimated exercise, with HIIT, walking & lots of chores - you could be anywhere between light and moderate.
  • some folk are much more resistant to gain than others who may gain very easily - TDEE calc is an average over the population, so there will be outliers. Some folk have found their real TDEE is 10% lower than what they calculate here

It is to do with many factors: genetic, insulin sensitivity, meds, previous dieting …
Gain can speed up after some time though, especially when pre / meno starts

How you can tell what TDEE works for you individually
Your longterm rate of loss on 5:2, i.e. after at least 4 weeks
The average for TDEE 2000 is 1lb weekly, with more for those with a lot to lose

Recommendations:

  • NO snacking
  • keep to NHS alcohol levels
  • Do not reduce starchy carbs atm - because cutting them can increase sugary / crap cravings in some folk. Concentrate on cutting the snack habit first
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2018 09:45

People usually find that if they cut out snacking then they can slightly increase the size of their meals,
which keep them more satisfied

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 07/04/2018 09:46

NoUnderpants - that’s great the marmite is helping you through. And fantastic about your jeans falling down.

Purple & BCF thanks for your kind comments.

Well done southeast your doing great.

Bug - 50lbs since July that’s absolutely fantastic. If your looking to lower your target again I’d say as long as your happy with it then go for it. You will achieve it on this.

OohMrDarcy · 07/04/2018 10:03

Oooh the happy dances continue! Fantastic SV Bug!!! Bet you are over the moon!

I've had a really busy couple of weeks, can't remember if I've mentioned but I've been redoing DDs room before she moves up to secondary... I've spent the last couple of weeks (with lots of her help thankfully) sorting her old junk, painting, doing tip runs with old furniture, buying new and building and rearranging. The bed (bunk with futon sofa bed ) arrived yesterday so we are finally almost done! I'm knackered. This morning I have already done 2 tip runs to get rid of the larger remains of the old bed and packaging of new. I'm now sat in Costa having a bloody well earned brunch, sausage bap and skinny decaf latte. I won't have any lunch as I'll be busy so not worried and definitely feel I deserve it! Smile

littleladylawyer · 07/04/2018 10:06

Wow well done bug what an achievement. Victory dances all round this weekend!

Off for DPs birthday outing today- going for brunch then cocktail making then dinner so def not a fd here! Brunch place has nice healthy options though and dinner is Japanese so as long as I avoid the fried things (mostly- I'm not turning down tempura soft shell crab!) shouldn't be too unhealthy.

Have a great Saturday everyone Smile

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 07/04/2018 11:13

bcf thanks so much for your very kind help. That all makes loads of sense. No snacking today!!! I had extra toast at breakfast to help me avoid a mid morning snack.

darcy and lawyer enjoy your well earned celebration brunches!

boldlygoingsomewhere · 07/04/2018 11:47

TOTM has hit for me today - I’ve been much less bloated than normal in the run-up and interestingly my carb cravings were much less than usual.

I’m also in the low TDEE group - 1500 cals. However, I’ve found that the composition of the calories makes a difference to me. I can eat more calories of LCHF foods without gaining weight but need to stick to TDEE it just below if I’m including bread, rice, potatoes, pasta.

NoWayNoHow · 07/04/2018 12:06

bug I think you're absolutely amazing. 50lbs in 8 months is extraordinary. What an inspiration! I'm also 5'4" and started this at nearly the same weight (13st) at the beginning of Feb - if I could get to 9st4lbs by October I wouldn't know what to do with myself I'd be so happy. I hope you're doing something wonderful to celebrate!!

southeastlondonmum · 07/04/2018 14:16

Bug congrats. Such an amazing achievement. Hope you have a lovely piece of cake to celebrate Cake

TheMShip · 07/04/2018 15:11

bug you really are an inspiration. I'm excited about seeing the 12's soon, near where you started!

Someone mentioned higher goal weights. I'm 5'7", 13st4.5, TDEE 1800 at current weight, ~1700 at my current goal of 12 st. I was 17st in May 2016 after DC2, started 5:2 a year later when I'd got to 16st and stalled. Had IBS which was "cured" by avoiding wheat and dairy and doing 5:2. I've come a long way.

Healthy BMI range for my height goes to 11st6, so I'll just see how I feel at 12st. I'd quite like to hit that goal before our summer holiday mid July!