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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 11:48

Well done on your SV and inches NSV, fennel

Yes, initial loss can be quite rapid for some folk.
A few folk have had 10-14 lb in the first 2 weeks, but they started from v high BMI

fasting obviously burns fat, but can get rid of bunged-up undigested food
and release retained water / bloating - this is not "just water weight" because if you have a lot excess water, this can cause high BP

That's good, bug maintaining over the Easter week.

fairy, lawyer Snacking can really mess up weight management, especially as it is usually crappy calorie bombs
No snacking ever, including weekends, makes a difference

fairy Your NFD problem may actually be worsened by 4:3 - the increased hunger makes some folk get into a starve / binge cycle, which doesn't normally happen on 5:2

It sounds like the type of food is causing you problems - I suggest cutting out / cutting right down on sugary crap and deep-fried food.
These are notorious for cravings spirals
Some people can have one sensible portion every other day; others can't do moderation - decide which you are
Remember the 10% guidelines for junk / sensible food over the week

You can also do 16:8 by having a good breakfast and late lunch or early tea, then no supper

If you don't want 16:8, then either eat as soon as you get in - have something ready to warm up
Or just have a protein mini-meal with low-cal veg, e.g. a boiled egg,cucumber & tomato, no bread, mayo, or anything else

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 04/04/2018 12:11

Quacking how is the birch oil/ dry brushing going? Seeing any improvement?

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 12:16

thank you bcf. I do feel stuck in a cycle, there again I struggle to control cals when I am not doing IF at all so something in me clearly needs to change...

You're absolutely right, I don't eat loads of crap but do need to cut down - I like your 90/10 rule. Good tips on 16:8 too.

Today is not a good test day (it's my last day at work so we are going out for lunch plus I brought chocolates in) but I'm determined to crack NFDs, starting Friday Grin

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 12:19

Another question - what is a sensible rate of weight loss? I have heard 0.5kg a week from somewhere and that seems to be what I'm averaging (my BMI is normal and I only have a few kg to lose)

NoWayNoHow · 04/04/2018 12:27

Well done all Tues B2Bs and FDs!

HLBug I'd definitely count a post-Easter STS as a SV Smile

Well done fennel, purple and quacking on your SVs too! And welcome fairy

Feeling loads better today - got to dinner time yesterday and realised I was STARVING from not eating very much the last few days. DS with GPs so DH and I went out for a Zizzis - chose really carefully, MFP'd everything and scraped in 51cals under TDEE for the day.

bcf I think you hit the nail on the head about NFDs - I've got to be completely aware of how much I'm eating for a couple of weeks so I can reset my "norm". Think my gain last week was purely lack of deficit now I look back at it. I'm also being really strict now on the snacking thing since I saw your cool graphs showing how it puts you back into mini-fasts and regulates blood sugar. It makes total sense to me so am trying to keep all treats within mealtimes.

This thread is genuinely such a wealth of info - so glad you're all here to keep me on the straight and narrrow!

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 04/04/2018 12:43

noway I totally agree about that picture (I think it was insulin resistance?) being fascinating!

I’m doing well on the snacking today. It is a regular NFD for me - because I’m feeling so tired - will have to see what 4pm feels like.

UnnecessaryFennel · 04/04/2018 12:53

Well, my self-control is clearly a bit stronger than I thought. Have just sat in a cafe with ds, sipping a San Pellegrino whilst he tucked into a full English, complete with chips and two slabs of buttery white toast (my absolute weakness), and I didn't touch so much as a chip. I won't say I didn't want to, but the will not to spoil a FD was stronger than the urge to nick his hash brown Grin

My dad was with us (black coffee only, well done dad!) and actually asked if it was 'that 5:2 thing' and was very supportive, so that's always helpful.

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 13:58

Thanks for the welcome noway Smile

Wow fennel that is impressive. A cooked breakfast, hash browns especially, would be my downfall - I don't allow anyone to have one if I'm on a FD!

Ooh the graph about snacking sounds really interesting. Would someone be able to re-post? I need some convincing...

NoWayNoHow · 04/04/2018 15:36

fairy - it's near(ish!) the beginning of the thread on 27 March, posted by bigchocfrenzy

Fennel I'd call that a huge NSV! Well done!

FannyDaggers · 04/04/2018 15:41

Hello, just back from a few days away, I tried a FD on Monday and came in around 800 I think, mainly due to bad preparation on my part. I was going to have a FD tomorrow but now out for lunch so doing one today instead. Not sure if I should try and fit another mini in this week due to Monday?
Well done on all the S and NS victories, and also thank you for all the really useful information which has really helped me especially when I was in the verge of a wobble over the weekend Flowers

TalkinPeece · 04/04/2018 15:44

It REALLY should be spring by now Hmm
I find fasting MUCH easier when the weather warms up
hrrruummpphh

quackingduck222 · 04/04/2018 15:48

Purple- Last week I forgot all about the oil / body brushing but been good at remembering this week. Ive noticed my stretch marks on my stomach have really really improved and not as noticeable. Not too sure on my legs one minute I think yes and next no. I think it depends how I’m standing Grin

That’s fantastic fennel. You really showed some restraint there!

Fairy - my opinion on weight loss rate has been completely random. If I’ve had a week or two off of eating shite that weight would be off within the week. Some weeks great losses, other weeks doing exactly the same would be STS. It’s sometimes good to look at the loss over a month rather than week to week.

UnnecessaryFennel · 04/04/2018 15:53

I know, I do love a hash brown too. Plus all that tempting white toast...Never mind - I Can Have It Tomorrow! Grin

DP and I are heading off tomorrow for a couple of days away, which I'm really looking forward to but I know it will be pretty indulgent food- and booze-wise, so I'm really happy to be fasting today and will nail another fast on Monday to help rebalance things.

I can't believe how easy and enjoyable I'm finding this. The only thing I will need to remember next week when I'm back to work is drinking plenty of water. I'm not good at drinking cold water so tend to top up with warm to make it easier to glug down, but that won't be so easy at work. Will just have to get used to lugging a bottle around with me I guess!

Agree TIP - just had a downpour here and it's very blowy and chilly...I need some sunshine!

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 16:19

ah thanks noway, found it. Very motivating! According to MFP 10% of my cals are in snacks so need to work on that (I bloody love all the stats in MFP)

thanks quacking yes mine does fluctuate too - I feel like my hormones are partly to blame.

and yy to easier fasting and less eating crap when the weather finally warms up!

purpleviolet1 · 04/04/2018 17:51

B2b was going so well. Had 350 cals left for tonight but we have ended up at friends and she has especially cooked for us and insisting we have dinner. At least this WOL is flexible. Will enjoy tonight and mini tomorrow

purpleviolet1 · 04/04/2018 17:53

Quacking that's encouraging. I ordered birch oil today!

We have snow and it's very cold so count yourselves lucky people

UnnecessaryFennel · 04/04/2018 19:12

You're all going to think I'm seriously dense but...there really aren't many calories in green veg, are there? I had no idea! Grin My dinner of roasted chicken breast, cabbage and green beans is going to come in at under 300 cals...means I can add some lovely butter to my veg!

littleladylawyer · 04/04/2018 19:48

purple hope you enjoy the dinner, can't believe you have snow! It's cold and rainy here but not that bad. Could definitely do with some sun in my life.

fennel well done re breakfast, it sounds like you're smashing it! Have a lovely couple of days away- I always find food one of the highlights of trips/ days out and being able to enjoy it without feeling guilty is one of the best things about this WOE- a couple of fasts and no damage done!

Had a good nfd today, I tried having a bigger lunch than usual which has kept me satisfied until now. Usually my lunch would be lean protein and veg based but I added some eggs and cheese, I think the fat helps me feel full for longer.

TalkinPeece · 04/04/2018 19:49

Fennel
These pictures are useful
www.wisegeek.com/what-does-200-calories-look-like.htm
But yes, vegetables are low in calories

I just served sausages and pasta with a massive tomato sauce (onions, peppers, mushrooms, celery, tomatoes) and two cups of sauce has the same calories as two chipolatas

quackingduck222 · 04/04/2018 19:58

Fennel I found the exact same. Actually there isn’t many calories in any veg. With mushrooms I don’t bother adding them to MFP now as the 14 cals ain’t worth bothering with.

It was a revelation for me as I was a complete vegetable doger prior to this way of life.

HLBug · 04/04/2018 20:14

Blackberries have hardly any calories either and make a lovely addition to breakfast or even as pudding after a meal. Good handful for about 20-30 calories. Raspberries pretty good too!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 20:19

Impressive discipline there, fennel

fairy To judge progress, look at the weight trend over 2-3 weeks,
because weight varies naturally a couple of lb due to water swings and the various stages of digesting food.

The average longterm rate of loss on 5:2 is 1 lb weekly
Those who start at very high BMI may lose much more quickly for the first several weeks, 3-4 lb not unusual for the first stone or two;
those already within healthy BMI will usually lose more slowly, after the initial loss.

That's good progress with the no snacking, underpants

fanny 800 is OK. I wouldn't add a mini-FD, because it's usually more sustainable to keep to 5 NFDs per week

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 20:23

Yup and you can enjoy a HUGE mixed salad - leaves, cucumber, tomato, peppers, onion - for very few calories, add fish / chicken breast / steak strips / egg / ..... and still have calories for a mini-meal of Greek yoghurt & berries.

OP posts:
UnnecessaryFennel · 04/04/2018 20:26

Well, after this evening's green veg revelation Grin the kitchen has closed on FD3 at 436 calories. And that's including a good blob of butter on my green beans, love it!

I feel great! Am well aware that there's a certain amount of novelty value going on here - and I'm not at work so things could change next week - but so far it all feels very sustainable.

The support here is fab too Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 04/04/2018 20:27

Don't be a veggy-dodger !
It's the dietary equivalent of being a soap-dodger
Your body needs lots of veggies for good health and they also fill you up.

If you have trouble with over-eating on NFDs, you are probably not eating enough veg;
fill your boots, or rather fill your plate

OP posts: