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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
littleladylawyer · 03/04/2018 20:44

Thanks so much for the explanation BigChoc, that makes a lot more sense. I think I missed the key 'excess' part when I was trying to remember what you had said!

I definitely want to try to eat as much unprocessed and nutritionally valuable food as possible and give my body the best fuel, but was having visions of any cake or weekend treats instantly sticking to my stomach.

Very interesting about junk based dieters needing a bigger calorie deficit, I would imagine lacking the necessary nutrients has a big impact on the digestive system and how food is processed by the body.

yogi47 · 03/04/2018 20:48

B2B here and first day closing at 688 calories.... full of cold so lots of veggies and salmon for dinner. Day 2 tomorrow... if anyone is with me! Hoping it will undo damage of Easter social gatherings since last Wednesday!!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 21:00

lawyer Rough rules of thumb for junk & booze over the week:

Weight loss phase - try to keep the total within 10% of calories consumed
i.e. max 10% junk & booze, with 90% reasonably healthy cals

Maintenance phase - within 20%

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 21:02

Your choice whether you have it all on 1 NFD, or spread it out over the 5 NFDs
FDs and miniFDs should be completely free of alcohol and junk

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 21:02

Well done, Tuesday fasters Smile

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 03/04/2018 21:12

I’ve ended up doing a unintended B2B, went shopping for lots of fish and frozen veggies and thought I’d swap today’s and tomorrow’s tea around to save making space in the freezer.

Oh I got my eyes tested BTW and I need glasses for distance may possibly be connected to headaches although they did say it’s quite a weak prescription but needed.

Well done to everyone on there B2Bs, it is quite hard. I forgot how hard as it’s been a while.

Purple I deffo think you will be fine on what you had. Veggies are really not high on the calories side at all.

Fennel that’s such a great cinema NSV.

BCF - I’ve spent the whole time I was religiously low carbing constantly consttipated. But as soon as I reintroduced carbs I was really regular. I’ve also added in fibre supliments a few weeks ago. No idea what’s happened apart from slightly less fat and no bread last week.

Apologies for the god awful spelling I’m knackard

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/04/2018 21:15

Some generous guessing when I couldn’t find a quick answer for something on MFP has seen my first fast day come in aroun 780. I’m happy with that. I am tired and not yet 100%.
I’ll see how I feel in the morning and non making it a B2B or not Smile

I’m very happy. Although there was a “hangry” dip around 3:30/4pm...
Is that when I should have a spoon of marmite?

quackingduck222 · 03/04/2018 21:28

Well done underpants on your first FD.

Just checking you know about the barcode scanner on MFP? Makes things a bit easier.

Yeah marmite / bovril when you feel like that or a big drink sometimes helps.

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 03/04/2018 21:35

This wasn’t barcode stuff. It was left over homemade stuff from the weekend.

(But I do bloody love the barcode function!)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/04/2018 21:44

Fd done at around 514cals, can't believe how much better I feel for that! No snacking for nfd tomorrow and hopefully bank a few hundred calories as going for lunch and a few glasses of wine on Saturday afternoon... then second Fd on Thursday although I might not weigh in on Friday ad I was so greedy and glutinous over the weekend! Will see how I go.

Night all Smile

HLBug · 03/04/2018 22:24

quacking you should look forward to the brand new world you'll see when you get your new glasses Smile I also need them for long distance (driving, cinema, lectures especially) and although prescription is fairly minor I felt like I was seeing the world in HD when I first got them! I remember looking at the leaves on trees in pure wonder Grin

Congratulations to everyone else who has fasted today - big high five to us all!!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 22:43

duck I recommend you stop the fibre supplements unless prescribed by your doctor
They can sometimes lead to constipation and the time period sounds about right.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/04/2018 22:44

Fibre supplements need a lot of water and even then may bung you up

OP posts:
Butteredparsn1ps · 03/04/2018 23:00

Wait - how did I not know about the barcode scanner? Genious.

purpleviolet1 · 04/04/2018 08:15

Morning all, think I might make today the 2nd day of a b2b Grin

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 04/04/2018 08:35

Morning all. I'm still a little undecided about today. I'll see how I go. Smile
I'm still really happy with my result yesterday though.
I will prepare myself a light lunch later then try the marmite "trick" in the afternoon... I can see that the no snack rule is the bit I need to nail. I've long been a grazer and it definitely isn't working for me...

HLBug · 04/04/2018 08:53

Weighed in this morning and I've STS as my weigh in last Wednesday. Given it was a holiday weekend with lots of yumminess I'm taking that as a win Smile

UnnecessaryFennel · 04/04/2018 09:29

Morning all! Third fast day for me and feeling really good.

Stepped on the scales this morning and I appear to have maintained the weight loss from before yesterday's eating day. My scales are are bit dodgy I think so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt but...4lbs off since Friday?? Is that even possible?

Even better though, is that I realised after going to the loo just now that I am comfortably doing my belt up on the next notch. I didn't even notice which shows something (not sure what, but definitely something Grin)

I am beginning to really like this WOE...

purpleviolet1 · 04/04/2018 09:33

9st 1.2lbs this morning Grin

quackingduck222 · 04/04/2018 09:43

Bug - I know it’s amazing I collected them yesterday it is like The worlds in HD.

BCF - really I never knew that, yes the timeline is bang on from when I started taking them. I will stop now.

Buttered Parsnips - I’ve been using MFP since 2010, only realised towards the end of last year. I’ve attached a photo of where it is. You need to click on Diary, food then press the scanner.

Good luck today underpants.

Well done on your STS Bug especially with Easter in your week.

Fennel if your belt notch is down one you’ve definitely lost weight. Sometimes it doesn’t show as physical weight off the scales but inch loss. If you’ve not done it already do your body measurements. Congratulations for your 4lbs off that’s wonderful and yep most definitely possible.

Super chuffed after my B2B back down to target weight this morning. That’s the quickest gain and loss I’ve ever had. Something funny definitely happened there.

5:2 Thread No. 75:  Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.
christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 10:22

Hello all . Delurking after a few weeks.

I have been doing 5:2 and sometimes 4:3 for a while and now have FDs down to a fine art... which I would be smug about if I didn't completely unravel on NFDs. It's like as soon as I don't have strict rules all self control goes out the window Blush. Main problem is not what I eat but how much, well that and craving chocolate after every meal. I am currently logging everything in MFP but ideally want to get to the point where I don't have to count calories every day.

How does everyone else managed not to overeat on NFDs? Sorry if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/04/2018 10:49

wow well done bug, purple fennel and quacking - great SVs Smile

Love the barcode function on MFP, its great.

FD here and nothing but tea and water yet, so far so good. I think after the weekend I had if I could STS like bug i'd be very happy!

fairy I'm sure someone like tip or bcf will have some sound advice for you, but what I think might help is applying the no snacking rule and making sure you have enough good wholesome food (and a treat) with your meals so that you are not looking for snacks in between, also, maybe trying to stick to the 8 hour window of eating?? I kind of know what you mean though, I almost find FDs easier than NFDs - but good luck with your next one Smile

Butteredparsn1ps · 04/04/2018 10:54

Thanks Quacking - I need to get out more - I am too happy about this function. Grin

christmastreewithhairyfairy · 04/04/2018 10:57

Thank you fortythree. Loving your name btw!
I am ok at not snacking... until 6pm when I come home ravenous and snack before the kids bedtime and then still need a proper meal later.

I was thinking of doing the 8 hour window thing, though I find it hard to skip breakfast on a day after a FD (which of course on 4:3 doesn't leave many days!). Think I would keel over by lunchtime. Does anyone manage this?

littleladylawyer · 04/04/2018 11:30

Well done bug, purple, fennel and quacking, lots of great results.

Good luck to underpants and any other Wednesday fasters.

It's an nfd here and I'm quite hungry after b2b but going to wait until lunch.

Snacking at weekends is where I'm going wrong. My tdee is very low so I think I need to be really strict about sticking to two meals a day if I want to be able to enjoy meals out, indulgent food and booze. During the week I'm fine, no snacking, no alcohol, 16:8 and good healthy food but I need to rein myself in at weekends and make sure any treats are part of meals. This weekend I'm determined that I WILL NOT SNACK!!

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