5:2 Thread No. 71: O Come All Ye Fasters, Joyful and triumphant, O come ye, O come ye to our 5:2

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done Bug that’s amazing.

I’ve gone until now without food but have a few left over Xmas treats ready to polish off before the new year

I’ve just signed myself up for a virtual race 25 Miles in January challenge. I’m excited but terrified as I’m very out out of practice and haven’t jogged since about September. I have little legs and I’m not very good so I’m looking at doing something on the Tredmill each day pretty much. It will get me back on the straight and narrow food wise anyway.

Newbie to 5:2/BSD

I’m 46 and very overweight, haven’t yet braved the scales. Menopause has hit, haven’t had a period in years. Consequently my weight has ballooned, particularly around the middle. I used to be a size 12-14, now I’m 16-18 😪😪

Would you recommend 5:2 or BSD?

Am very impressed HLBug. I had more calories than that for my lunch and still felt hungry straight afterwards.

Got a 30 minute slow run in this afternoon and managed to remind myself that finishing off DGS's leftover fish fingers constituted snacking. So far so good.

BigChoc my eating habits are slightly unconventional. I'm a late evening eater and large lunch is guaranteed to make me want to sleep in the afternoon! It's not uncommon for me to eat at 10 p.m. - although I don't tend to go to bed until 1 - 2 a.m. either. Good to know that it's entirely normal to be hungry after such a carb heavy meal though. Just need to wait for my brain to accept it as i've been so heavy on snacks recently that it's forgotten what an empty stomach feels like.

Oddsocks I’ve done both and there are pros and cons for both. This is totally my perspective of what I found on both.

I’ve done BSD last year. I opted for this over shake diet (Cambridge etc) as you could eat real food and it was by far the cheaper alternative. I did shake diets in the past and just couldn’t face them again. I did one round (8weeks) and personally did well. I had already dieted in the lead upto doing BSD and managed to get a stone off in 3 weeks. I can’t remember how much I lost in total but at the time I honestly thought it was the most successful diet I’d done in terms of quick results.

It was hard, 800 cals a day is tough going but you see the results FAST. And that’s obviously a bonus.

I came straight onto 5:2 and still continued to loose weight. It’s a amazing way of life. It was nice to do the BSD as almost a back to basics calorie counting something I’d personally never done and it’s a eye opener.

I came off Xmas last year and went until March eating what I wanted and came back with a 2 stone gain. I did re try BSD for a week, lost 9lbs and promptly put it all back on again in a matter of days. I came back to 5:2 and have continued since then.

Both diets work and are great, BSD is quicker but restricted and 5:2 is more steady but easier going.

The only thing I can say is try one and see how it goes, if you don’t get on with it swap.

Unfortunately it’s like any diet tho if you return to old habits the weight does go back on. I say this as someone who does have slip ups of binging now and again.

But hand on heart I love 5:2, as someone who has yo-yo dieted for 8 years I know if I continue with the 5:2 way of life I can and will maintain my loss.

quackingducks222

Really helpful 👍🏻

Oddsocks, welcome. No personal experience of BSD but Dh tried it and quickly failed. Found it too restrictive and not compatible with real-life (8 weeks is a long time).

He isn't on any diet at the moment but I am following 5:2 and so far so good. It's slow weight loss for me but as quacking said, it's steady. My TDEE is 1539 and a deficit of 2000 a week (if I have two fast days) is not quite a lb but it's great to see the numbers coming down anyhow. It's easy to fit in as it's no extra work as such, (less work as less meals on the fast days! ) and it's pretty flexible in that if I have plans I can fit my FDs around them. I dont feel as if I'm missing out on anything.

Good luck for whatever you decide!

Thanks purpleviolet1 - 5:2 sounds more achievable, I was looking at VLCD but I want a long term plan not quick fix solution.

Been looking at Pinterest for FD ideas

Oddsocks - I’ve been on and off VLCD for years and had huge success with them but learnt absolutely nothing and the day I’ve come off them the weight piles back on.

If you go with 5:2 I’d recommend downloading MFP, work out your TDEE and calorie count on both FDs and NFDs. It’s a PITA for a bit until it learns your foods I didn’t know for months there was a barcode scanner on it . It’s great to keep your foods in check.

Long term it is a fantastic way of life.

My go to FD meal is a mushroom omelette I find it very filling.

Purple your post reminded me when I did BSD it must of been over summer I endured a wedding a christening and a party and I couldn’t eat the buffet. It was a nightmare and I agree with your DH that it wasn’t compatible with RL.

quackingduck222 I’ve downloaded the app “Eat This Much” as recommended on page 1 on this thread, would you recommend MFP too.
Either way guess I’m going to have to brave the scales tomorrow

I’ve not tried that app. Force of habit as I’ve had MFP since 2010 only ever used it probably last year tho.

I know that feeling of braving the scales. I remember posting on here last year asking if I should do a blind weigh in and get my DH to photo the scales for me.

One thing to tell yourself - you will never be that weight again. New year, new you!

Best of luck

Ducks 🦆- I’ve downloaded MFP too

Just checking in to report I had a sleepless night thinking about weight and ended up on the scales at 4am this morning!! End result a very alarming 15 stone exactly 😪

Morning everyone.

Well done oddsocks for getting on those scales. Have you worked out your TDEE?

Quacking there is a barcode scanner on mfp?? This is news to me!

Up with the babba and now on the sofa looking for a lighting for our wc

FD tomorrow whose with me?!

There is purple it was a game changer for me.

When you add your food next to the search bar you will see the barcode symbol, click on it photo your item and hey presto it’s done.

Il add a screen shot.

Yep up for a FD tomorrow Purple.

I’ve decided this year I’m not going to bother making any NY resolutions but I’m going to give myself some mini goals. Just something to aim for.

When I first started dieting I had a list of weight milestones for each 1/2 stone and rewards for each one non food rewards like hair cut, nails done etc and that worked really well as incentive.

Forgot to attach MFP barcode scanner location.

granny I recommend you try to change the habit of very late dinners:
in itself, eating later tends to put on more weight and also increases the risk of conditions such as high BP

Welcome, oddsocks

If you have been diagnosed with T2 or preT2, then the BSD was specifically developed (by a leading T2 research team ) for these medical conditions
However, it is doubly restrictive not just in the daily 800 cals, but also in the type of food - low carb Mediteranean
It also is a short-term VLCD, so does not teach longterm habits and hence needs something like 5:2 / 5:2 BSD afterwards

Hence, if you merely need to lose a lot of weight I recommend 5:2 for most folk, rather than BSD
5:2 is a sustainable lifetime WOL, that gradually teaches healthier habits

I suggest, to start, that you don't worry about mfp on NFDs

• most people lose on 5:2 without this, so try it for 2-3 weeks without, while your body adapts to fasting 2 days per week.

Then review and tweak if need be, including mfp.

Starting plan for 2-3 weeks:

• On NFDs & FDs: No snacks between meals
  This includes anything with calories, whether treats or healthy
  Have any treats, lattes, alcohol, even fruit & veg as part of a meal
  Snacks keep insulin - and hence hunger - raised throughout the day and hinders fat-burning on NFDs
  So, try to keep meals at least 4 hours apart, with no calories between

• Every day: start with a glass of water and keep drinking through the day, preferentially water - tea & coffee are ok too.
  If you must have fizzy drinks, even diet ones, ration to at most one 330 ml can or glass per day

• FDs: Choose any 2 days (you can change each week, or keep the same) prferably when you won't be around food / without much to do.
  Plan, calorie count & shop count in advance your entire menu for the day

• FDs: there is no calorie allowance for exercise (but there is for NFDs, also for BFing)
  So even if you are theoretically on minus cals, don't eat back exercise cals on FDs

• FDs: most folk do best with just black coffee or tea for breakfast, then having either lunch & supper, or just supper
  Trying to snack or graze on 500 or even 800 calories is usually very unsatisfying and more difficult.
  So, start by trying to eat just twice on FDs, not multiple occasions

• FDs:* NO alcohol or sugary treats*
  Also, avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals (porridge is ok, but not the flavoured instant kind)
  Have those - in moderation - on NFDs

• On NFDs, keep within NHS alcohol guidelines

• Also try not to exceed more than one portion of junky carb (pizza, crisps, fries) or sugary treat, even homemade

• When no longer hungry, stop eating.
  Don't finish off your plate just for politeness, or to avoid waste - e.g. don't finish off the DC leftovers

oddsocks As a starting point, I also recommend measuring

• waist (at the narrowest point, usually 2" above the navel)
• hips (at the widest point, including upper thighs)
• bust

Shape changes - which are burned body fat - can often be quicker and more dramatic than scales.

Any chaps lurking, measure their waist exactly on the navel
and don't measure hips.

Thank you, thank you, thank you BigChocFrenzy - that is really helpful

Quackingducks222
TDEE is 2154
BMI is 37.2

Off into town to buy the 5:2 book and receipe book and a blender to make some yummy smoothies

Pop back later

oddsocks Some folk enjoy low carb shakes / smoothies on FDs, but many others find that solid food is more filling

Try them if you want, but if you feel very hungry on FDs, then return to solid food only.

I strongly advise against standard fruit smoothies on FDs,
because the concentrated sugar spikes insulin and can make you very hungry.
Same reason as avoiding fruit juice or dried fruit.
Always include protein in a smoothie.

However, some folk especially after exercise, enjoy a smoothie with low carb protein powder and a handful of berries - not much sugar content there.
Or even the RTD (in a carton) Atkins low carb shakes

BigChocFrenzy

Would it be okay to have fruit smoothies on FDs?

Also I guess veg smoothies/juices would be okay on FDs?

I was thinking of buying some Almond milk to blend it together

The new blender has got DD (15), out of her cave and dressed as she wants to try it

Welcome Oddsocks. Oh the scales. Best friend/worst enemy. Sometimes there is no reasoning with them. Pleased to say NSV (non scale victories) are very much celebrated here.

BigChoc - how long before eating an evening meal and bedtime would be reasonable? Interesting to hear it can increase BP as mine has crept up over the past 10 years.

Plan for today is for the one evening meal and no snacking. The no snacking will test my resolve as we are hosting NYE dinner tonight and OH has bought all the things I can easily mindlessly eat to add an additional 1000 calories to the days total. He also keeps buying reduced price mince pies. Grrr.

Hi all
Can I join in ? Got on the scales this morning and have put 10lbs on over the last few months. I don't feel like me anymore...
I tried 5:2 a while ago and it worked well for a while but I always found fast days difficult when cooking for my boys but one is now at Uni and the younger one can fend for himself once or twice a week so I'm up for it !
Advice on days to fast would be helpful and ideas on vlc meals for fast days too. Will start first FD Tuesday I think.
Happy New Year all !