5:2 Thread number 70: Is there is a lean person inside you struggling to get out, who is currently sedated with chocolate & wine ? Join us to find that person - without giving up all your favorites

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I admit I'm not enjoying the not drinking.
I'll make it to next weekend on principle
but I love to cook tasty meals and serving water or squash with them does not "do it" for me.

Then again it has made both DH and I focus on what we consume again ....
Strict fasting for a couple of weeks should help

Hang on in there folks - the results are worth the effort ...

tip I enjoy water with ice and a slice - I can taste the meal better.
I also enjoy herbal tea
How about a tomato juice ?
Or a small grape juice or cranberry juice at dinner? In moderate amounts, they can be a healthy addition.

Duck If I am going out for a big lunch or dinner on an NFD, then I usually make that my only meal, or just have one other small meal of say soup or tuna salad.
Also, if I go out more than once in a week, then I only have pud on 1 occasion - then espresso instead of pud the other times
Also keep to nhs alcohol guidelines - booze stops fat-burning for hours and also stores the excess cals around your mid-section

Remember every day: NO snacking or grazing

• tip was the one who first found that was important

Snacks hinder fat-burning and increase hunger

I suggest one week of mfp, to check portion size, treats, hidden calorie bombs.

tip remember that your liver is thanking you, as it enjoys its annual hols

Hi all. Not drinking can be hard but the more you go on the less you want it. I can't drink because of some permanent meds I take and I don't miss it any more. It's nice to use the calories for something else!

I've struggled this weekend. Have eaten sugar both days. FD tomorrow.

Hi to TiP - I've seen you on other threads I think.

BCF would you advise me on my TDEE? I don't want to overestimate. I am 5'3", 12 stone, have a very sedentary desk job but run 5k twice a week and do an hour of bodypump twice per week. I'm worried I'm over in having 1,980.

Bigchoc
Thing is that booze is my only vice - I do not smoke or eat sweet food
and I do enjoy it, especially with nice meals.
I shall try to be strong

peachy
I post all over the place, but I've been doing 5:2 since August 2012 and still love it

peachy Are you ok to post your age too, for the tdee` calc ?

tip I know I'm going to struggle on the no-sugar for the next 6 weeks < shudder>

I made that the only meal of the day on both occasions although I did have pudding twice. That's unusual for me as it very rare I have one out.

On the plus side tho I've not drank alcohol in 10 weeks. I'm not a huge drinker and rarely drink if we go out for meals. Really not bothered by it at all.

My FD turned into a NFD as Someone stopped in the chip shop on the way home. I've had words. As much as it's nice he's thinking of us it's the 2nd time he's pulled this in 3 weeks. The first time he messaged me twice and I said no. So he's now taken it upon his self to just go and do it as he knows I won't waste it.

My jeans don't appreciate it!

Restart take 4 tomorrow

peachy I just checked and for age 30, TDEE 2000 looks sensible for your current weight.
That gives you the classic weekly 3000 deficit / 1lb loss.

If you want to speed things up, or get accustomed to how you will eat at maintenance, then I suggest 1-3 NFDs at your goal weight TDEE,
which is around 1750.
Start with one such NFD weekly, the others 2000 and see how you feel

After a pretty poor week I am pleased to say I am still 9 stone 13.8lbs. Clinging on hard. Going to have a healthy NFD today and a FD tomorrow hopefully

Thank you BCF - very helpful! I'm 39. I like the idea of trying my new TDEE every now and then.

I have gone through a process of realisation after being on this thread that when I am trying to change the way I eat I always want to facilitate bingeing in some way. So the reason I was doing every-other-day is so that I could binge on my NFDs.

I actually need to address this desire to binge, and to do this I do need to calorie count for a while despite hating it. My NFDs are going to have to be more closely monitored. I know you have all been telling me this for weeks but I've only just realised it for myself!

Thank you all for being patient with a learner!

We’re all here to support each other peachy no guilt, no shame as BCF says!

peachy
The cool thing with 5:2 is that weight loss is the side effect, not the goal.
Hence why folks like me still pop in to say Hi over 5 years after we started.
I do not fast every week - but I do enjoy fast days.
Learning how to eat healthily for the next 40 years is a gradual process.

You have been wanting to binge on food. I like to drink too much at the weekend.
Both of us can drag ourselves towards moderation together

Hi everyone, can I join you? I did 5:2 a few years ago and lost about 2 stone, and had a really good relationship with food for a long time and felt really good about it. Then fell off the wagon and regained it all! I have since then lost a stone, gained it back, then lost it again doing quite extreme diets then failing and binging. So I’m hoping to not only lose a stone, but to regain control of my eating.
So this is week two and I am having a fast day today, going well so far. Planning second FD for Thursday. Oh, and I am also doing a sober November, which is definitely a struggle for me as I do like my wine. But am already sleeping better after the first week, so it’s probably what I need.
Good luck fellow Monday fasters!

It's good you have the insight now, peachy
Don't worry, quite a few folk have had a problem with NFDs, because these are "maintenance days" and their weight gain was because they got used to eating quite a lot above maintenance.

So, retraining NFD habits is the way to go, as you have realised
Trying to compensate with more FDs doesn't tackle overeating / bingeing - and usually leads to rapid regain after reaching goal.

At 39, I suggest you first retrain so 2000 NFDs are a habit - with mfp as training wheels - then add 1700 NFDs when you feel ready. No rush.

Welcome, FBCB
and well done on going for dry November
Now you have learned that you need a permanent maintenance plan after goal - nearly all of us do

tip I keep my username to remind myself of the bad habit I had for 30 years.
I am always vigilant, because I know I could otherwise slide back to several choc doughnuts, cheesecake and choc cookies at a sitting

You may remember my 5,000-cal choc feasts when I started 5:2 !
Everyone was very patient and let me sort out for myself that I had to stop those

btw, I did years of low carb before and the choc demon was always lurking
However, 5:2 has totally tamed it - not total abstinence but sensible moderation
I enjoy a treat so much more now that it is a sensible portion and once every week or two,
i.e. my treats are now occasional

Ah yes, for the current and newer posters on the board,
I remember when bigchoc was the newcomer who would inhale cakes and sweets and sugary crap and then wonder why the gym did not make it all magically go away

The biggest mental change for most people has to be the
<strong>NO SNACKING</strong> rule.
Eat at mealtimes. never in between.
It goes against everything the obesogenic food industry wants
but it will make you happy and healthy for years to come.

oh, I did realise - I just wasn't ready for such a drastic change

So you’re saying BCF is/was mere mortal like the rest of us...?! Wowzers

We are all mortal !
But the wonderful BigChoc has the patience of a saint to help lots and lots of new people start their journey to healthy happy eating.

Its interesting how many of the posters from the very early threads are still around and how many of us still use 5:2 as a way to enjoy life while staying healthy.

... a very greedy mortal ...
but the menopause meant I could no longer get away with it, despite being a gym rat.

Also, to be serious, when we talk about "getting away with lots of junk or booze" ,
most people mean wrt weight, because we don't know about all the internal or longterm effects.
I wish the science on fasting had been developed 35 years earlier

Mostly, I wish Big Food had never invented snacking, especially on processed crap that is totally different to what our bodies have evolved to handle.

Enough with deep thoughts !
Who's fasting today ?

Hi all

Can I join you please? I've had a fairly rocky relationship with the scales for many years - been up, down and everywhere in between! Tried SW, WW, cabbage soup, you name it.

I'm now heavier than I've been for 5 years and I'm fed up. None of my clothes fit, my energy is through the floor, and my children deserve better.

Ordered the book on Friday, finished reading it last night (thanks Amazon Prime!) and woke up this morning and decided today was my first fast day. Weighed in at 14 stone 8 1/4 lbs. I've only ever felt good at under 13st 8, but have struggled to ever get past the 12 stone mark. I'm just under 6' 2" so am never going to be in the 10's - I just want to be under 13st 8. And be able to maintain that without working out every other day. I've found your posts and threads really inspiring.

Had a boiled egg and a tiny piece of smoked salmon for breakfast. Only black coffee and water since then. Steak and spring greens for dinner tonight. I struggled mid afternoon when colleagues passed round the cakes but managing ok. Feel a bit light headed and have a headache, but i'm so used to constant nibbling that I know I can get through this. I've just had a large cup of hot water and that's helped.

Now I just need to get through the kids bedtime, then dinner, and I can go to bed! Have decided Mondays and Thursdays are going to be my fast days.

What day of the week do people weigh in at? I'm so used to getting on the scales every day and then getting disheartened, and I really want to stop that habit.

Welcome!

I think BCF advises us to weigh the morning after 2nd FD of the week.

BCF - you are inspirational in how you help people on here 😀

I feel better , less bloated since starting. Using mfp here and there on nfd’s as well to give me an idea of potion control. It’s crazy how easy it is to eat too much when eating junk as it’s basically empty calories. Quite an eye opener