5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thank you goldfinch. I haven't acted on stage since I left school 35 years ago, so it was a great boost. I can only dream of being 10 st 1 though! My 10th wedding anniversary today and I'm 7 lbs off my wedding weight, so feeling good about that.

Hello all

Can I please join in? I am a 5:2 virgin and today is my first FD. I'm currently on maternity leave with DD (not BFing) who is my second DC. I managed to lose baby weight first time round with MFP and Fitbit, but never really got down to my goal weight before becoming pregnant again with DD.

My starting stats are:

Height - 5'4
Weight - 12 stone 12 pounds
BMI - 30.8 (just into obese territory)
Size - 12/14 on top and 14/16 on bottom

I can't find the tape measure to do hips / chest / waist so I'll fill that in later.

I'd like to loose about 2 and a half stone, but more would be great so I can get nicely into the 'healthy' weight BMI territory. The lightest I can remember being in recent years is about 10 stone just before my wedding, and I liked the way that felt / looked. I'm going on holiday early September and I'd like to loose at least a stone by then if possible...otherwise I'll have no holiday clothes to fit into.

Any starting tips for a newbie?

I've mainly been filling up on cups of tea today (!) and keeping motivated by reading all the success stories on the other thread. Had a circa 150 kcal lunch and have a 350 kcal ready meal dinner planned for tonight.

Hi HLBug! I'm on a FD today too. Black tea works well for me during the day, as does instant miso soup (30kcal/packet). Someone upthread pointed me towards sugar free jelly, too. I found powdered packets of it and will be making up some wee pots for the fridge for next week's FDs. Top tip that BCF is always on about is drinking enough water! I've taken that on board and I alternate tea/miso soup with water.

I don't aim for 500kcal FDs yet - I'm still relatively new to 5:2, my BMI is 32.3 so definitely still in the obese range. I'm quite happy to close the kitchen somewhere in the 600-800kcal range. It's gradually been coming down to the lower end of that recently, just naturally. Initially I would still have a boiled egg for breakfast, for example, but the last week or two I've been comfortable skipping that, so that's 77kcal automatically down.

Hi HLBug and welcome, Your start weight is the same as mine and I'm sure you will soon see some good losses on this WOE. My tips are to follow BCF's advice, to drink lots of water ( not hard in this weather) , to save calories for the evening, planning FD meals ahead so you are looking forward to them, distracting yourself on FD evenings with something completely un-food related such as a bath or (in my case) knitting, and never giving up on a FD after lunchtime. Before lunch I have occasionally decided it's not going to happen and will consciously decide to switch days, but never after lunch.

That's a confidence boosting costume NSV pango Now strut your stuff around the stage

Welcome, bug and I hope your 1st FD is going well.
Main FD rule is no junk or alcohol on those 2 days - base your meals around protein with masses of veg, to maximize your nutrient intake.

I recommend you read the "How to Start" section of the OP - all you need to know is there, plus useful calculators and FD recipe links

FD tips:

• glug a teasp Marmite mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon, to avoid headaches or feeling out of sorts
• avoid fruit juice, dried fruit or sugary breakfast cereals - they spike insulin, make you hungry sooner and hinder fat loss
• as pp said, start the day with a glass of water and keep water with you

Most useful tip for FDs and NFDs: NO snacking or nibbling
Eat meals, with nothing between, even "healthy" snacks.
If you want fruit, alcohol, a sugary treat or crisps etc on an NFD, have it as part of a meal

Thanks everyone. I've just finished my dinner and can honestly say I've never looked forward to / enjoyed a calorie controlled ready meal so much in my life

I've been thinking about food too much today, but I guess that's to be expected on the first few FDs? I've also been stuck inside with DD due to yucky weather, so a bit of boredom probably to blame as well.

I've had a couple of very hungry / lightheaded spells but have just drank some tea and that's helped lots. I probably haven't been drinking enough water though if I'm honest. What is the general opinion on Diet Coke on FDs?

My TDEE is about 2050 kcals - which is loads!! I'll certainly (happily!) eat that on a couple of NFDs but hopefully I'll be able to eat a bit less on some other days which should maybe help things along a bit faster.

Water is by far the best drink.

Other good choices are :
+unsweetened nondairy milk (almond / cashew / macadamia / oat)
+coffee, espresso
+tea (green / black / herbal)
+beef Bovril

Fizz / diet drinks
I recommend no more than 1 330ml can of fizz on any day, FD or NFDs.
Same for flavoured water with sweeteners.
Mosely references research that found artificial sweeteners may alter the gut flora and hinder weight loss in some people.

However, he says Stevia doesn't do this, so he suggests Stevia if you need a sweetener.

Almost all fizz - whether diet or full fat - contains sodium benzoate, which we should all limit too.

Other research found that any sweetener can raise insulin - and hunger - in some people.
So, if you notice this effect, do avoid.

Personally, I made healthy changes gradually, one at a time:

I now use only Stevia in my herbal or green tea
I have cinammon in porridge, to reduce the amount of Splenda I use.
I have trained myself to enjoy natural yoghurt without sweetener
and I also replaced milk choc bars by a couple of squares of the 90% cocoa Lindt chocolate - it's v low sugar and high in antioxidants.

Big change after reviewing the latest research: I gave up fizz cold turkey more than a month ago - that was surprisingly easy

Isn't there also some logic in trying not to drink artificially sweetened stuff? Because your tastebuds tell your brain that something calorific is on its way, and then when those calories don't come, your body craves them. Read that somewhere. Mind you, the Fast recipe book by Mimi Spencer recommends diet Hartley's jellies which, as I said up thread

... are lovely for lunch at 2 calories each! (I hit post there too early)

Doh! BCF has already said that, about artificial sweeteners, upthread. As you were.

Thanks BCF - that's useful advice. I'll aim for Tuesday as my next FD and now go and enjoy some NFDs over the weekend almost guilt free after a successful 497 kcal day today

Well done on a good 1st FD, bug Now relax
Why not pamper yourself with an early bed tonight and maximize the fasting benefits.

Not posted for a couple of days.

Welcome to the newbies to the thread. You will find some amazing support here and it is a amazing life style change.

I had a FD Thursday and am planning to fast again tomorrow.

I've started working out again and mixing up my routine and music so I don't get bored. I've even started lifting heavy weights.

I was trying to start phasing out MFP but ATM I need it as I'm under TDEE most days. Is there a way I can up my calories by having something healthy? How about nuts or seeds in yoghurt? If so what would be recommended?

duck No need to deliberately eat more to reach TDEE, if you are not hungry on NFDs - unless you become near underweight (BMI 18.5)
Listen to your body.

TDEE is only a theoretical value - an average over the population with the same age, weight, height &'activity level as you.
In reality, an individual may need to consume less / more than theoretical TDE, depending on:
hormonal balance, bodyframe size, gut flora, genetics, prescription meds, hormonal contraceptives, thyroid or other chronic conditions, ...

I have a list of high nutrient foods to increase calories if anyone needs this

Do any of you just power through on fast days and have nothing to eat?

I find that eating makes me hungry, sounds crazy but it's like my body/stomach is turned 'off' and when I eat I switch it 'on'.

I am considering just drinking water and coffee today and just forgetting about food until tomorrow.

Anyone do this or know if it is a good/bad idea?

MrsTumble As an occasional one-off, it doesn't matter.
BUT, done on a regular basis, it is NOT advised to have zero-cal FDs

• You may lose muscle mass which can leave you flabby and is not healthy.
  The aim is BODYFAT loss, not just losing any type of weight.

• You are also more likely to regain as soon as you stop 5:2, if muscle is reduced and also if you have not learned to eat within sensible limits.

• You may not obtain sufficient nutrients over the week (unless your diet on the other 5 days is very healthy and without junk)
  This can cause reduced energy, mood change and make you prone to infection etc
  Remember, FDs are basically 36 hrs in total : 2 sleeps and the day between.

Dr Varady researched different %TDEE on FDs wrt weight loss and muscle loss on her ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) regime - she examined especially 0 / 25% / 50% TDEE
She found 25% was the optimum for the dual aim of maximising fat loss, while retaining all muscle.

I would suggest you have just supper on NFDs, so you have a 22 hr to max limit 24 hr zero-cal fast:

• plan that supper menu in advance the day before, shopping and doing all possible prep work, including any weighing and calorie counting

• choose a low GI meal i.e. no junk, no deep fried food or crisps - no alcohol, no added sugar including what is in any packet
  . Also, no dried fruit, fruit juice or latte - EAT your cals, don't drink them
  . Base the meals on plenty of protein, masses of different veg, optionally add a sensible portion (up to 100g cooked weight) of starchy carbs - 100g is total even if you have double starches.
  . Choose satiating starches, e.g. wholegrain bread / quinoa / brown rice / boiled or baked potato, not mash or fried.
  . Add lentils, beans, peas which help blood sugar control

• eat FD supper mindfully, with a glass of ice water before & during

• drink water afterwards, rinse well with mouthwash and clean your teeth, preferably BEFORE taking your plates back to the kitchen

• Have an early night on the FD

I'm having Sunday FD.
Anyone else ?

Thanks big choc, ok will think of something to make for later.

I am struggling to shift any off this half stone I'm trying to get rid of. I think I have eaten under my TDEE all this week and had a successful fast day. But haven't lost anything and it's peeing me off!

What are your 'go to' fast day meals bigchoc?

What are you having tonight?

If you eating within TDEE on NFDs and nailing 2 FDs per week, then you will lose weight.
The best FD menu and meal timing is what you personally can nail regularly twice or week
So, you may prefer different menus every FD, or stick to basically the same

Because I usually train evenings, I have my main FD meal at lunch:
protein is typically salmon fillet, sometimes feta & walnut / prawns & hummus / fillet steak
with a huge mixed salad containing several types of raw veg, lots of balsamic vinegar, squeeze of lemon.
Then after training: some berries with natural Greek yoghurt.

The only FD rules:

• No alcohol whatsoever on FDs
• Avoid junk food, especially sugary treats, deep fried food
• Drink plenty of water. Best not to more than 1 330 ml can fizz
• Do not eat back any exercise calories on FDs.

Rate of loss:
If you have only 7lb to shift and are already within healthy BMI, then your loss will likely be much slower than those who are in a higher bmi class - that is the case on any WOE, not just 5:2.

Also, weight varies naturally from day to day because of:
undigested food, water retention from carbs or hot weather, hormonal swings etc.
At totm, water retention can be several lb for some women

So, this can easily disguise a 1-3 lb loss, which is likely what you would lose per month when within healthy BMI

The lower your BMI is, ntbo the less excess bodyfat that is available for burning as fuel.
So your body has to work harder to do so.
Also, a higher % of your remaining bodyfat is likely to be "stubborn fat"

Stubborn lower body fat is due to hormones, not just calories.
It only becomes a problem when you are already within healthy BMI - slow weight loss above this is due to other reasons, because your body will be burning "ordinary" fat (with beta receptors)

Fat cells have 2 types of cell receptors:

• alpha adrenergic receptors (store fat)
• beta adrenergic receptors (release fat)^

"Pears" have much higher densities of alpha receptors in the bum and thighs.
Typically almost all women , expecially from middle age onwards, have high enough alpha receptors here to make it very difficult to have lean legs.

"Apples" have more alpha receptors in their midsections.