5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats on your SV, ouch That's excellent progress

You are so close to goal now, duck and well into lean BMI

Congrats on your SV too, cinderella You are wise to check whether you maintain that weight for a couple of weeks, before gradually moving to maintenance

Do plan your FD menu in advance -and shop if need be - the day before, so that you don't get stuck with food that doesn't suit
Glug down a glass of cool water now and keep drinking !

This is a great thread. I've been doing 5:2 now for 6 weeks and lost 3kg. I'm 5ft7, and have gone from 62kg to 59kg. I've found that the fast days have become easier. Especially since I ditched breakfast so that I could eat more in the evening.

I do OJF. Office Job Fasting.
Breakfast and lunch at work, food as soon as home, then fast until 9.am, which is a 14 hour fast, eating only in a ten hour window.

Scary I'm going to try that approach starting today!

Hello Lights - and well done on your amazing loss so far! What's your target weight - I'm interested because I'm 5"9 and am heavier than you were when you started after losing 13lb in total on 5:2 to date! Your weight and loss is very impressive!

Fasting today.

Just fluids so far.

I last ate at 8pm last night so I'm doing pretty well.

I have a 300 ish calorie meal from Waitrose and a whole bag of spinach.
Then I might have some natural yoghurt.......

I have found this thread and just read all the great advice. Last year (on a sponsored slim) I did the 5 2 diet, some weeks 4 3 and lost 3 stone this time last year. Was delighted and said I would not do what I had always done in the past and put it back on.

Have put back on 2 stone and determined to do it again and make it a change of life this time. One of the things that always puts me off getting back on when I slip (or have a break for a holiday) is the headaches - have tried the Marmite tip today so hoping that makes a difference for me.

5ft 3 and currently 11st 3, did first FD yesterday and plan to do another tomorrow - it worked before so no reason why it will not work again - hopefully

Welcome Brownieleader! Amazing weight loss. I am like you and struggle to maintain so that is my mission this time around. Good luck.

Grannygrown - a whoosh would be worth a sleepless night

Hope all those doing a FD doing ok. What I am enjoying about 5:2 so far is how decadent I feel the following day just by eating breakfast!

Hello to everyone else 👋🏻

Oh and I meant to say BCF - a colleague at work said they don't agree with 5:2 (not that I had asked for their opinion ) and that it would probably slow my metabolism down, so I thought of you and your PhD and all the amazing weight loss stories on here and just said "each to their own"! My face probably said "do one!" though as I was fasting and hadn't had my lunch at that point

My goodness I'm so stuffed from my tea.

I did no carb noodle bolognesse (sorry can't spell it) with mushrooms, kidney beans, onion, can of tomatoes and cherry tomatoes and it was lovely. Even my DD said it was yummy.

And the best thing is, if my maths are correct, quite a large bowl came in at 500 cals. I will definitely be having that on a FD.

I personally find Sarah, that people are quite ignorant to most diets. As soon as you mention fast days they get a bit "oh so your starving yourself" my DH called it bloody stupid last year so I made him watch the documentary. He soon changed his opinion.

I do try to not mention it but if anyone has some great responses in the bag I'd love to hear them so I can use them next time!

Wow some amazing SVs and NSVs, very motivating 😀
FD here and kitchen closed on 515 cals. Had a bad weekend so felt good to fast today, I'm thinking I might add in a weekend fast a la BCF to curb overindulgence as it might start to scupper my good efforts during the week... will see how I get on this weekend.

Nearly done tues fasters... not long to go

Welcome, lights
Well done on your SV and on quickly adapting to fasting.

OJF is very apt for your version of 14:10, Scary

Scary, Tea Many folk find 16:8 or 14:10 on NFDs helps keep them under control
BUT
If you do daily 14:10 or 16:8 without FDs, most people need a similar weekly calorie deficit to 5:2 with FDs, i.e. around 3000 calls for 1lb weekly loss.
This usually means skipping either breakfast or supper and not eating back those calories during the day

Welcome, brownie
You did so well on your 5:2 last year, so you know you can lose weight

Once you are at goal - on ANY diet - everyone needs a maintenance plan (I've listed suggestions upthread) because

if you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist

sarah Most comments about diets are not based on fact, including some HCPs who haven't kept up with the last several years of scientific progress
Any doctor or scientist can be directed to the section at the end of the OP listing some peer-reviewed papers by reputable scientists, not online gurus. Or read the science refs in Mosely's book.

Geek Stuff

The "starvation" myth is the biggest misunderstanding of the science:

It arose from the Anson Keys' Minnesota experiment during WW2 - on already lean young men who were semi-starved for 6 months, fed only very poor quality food, v little protein or healthy veg and made to exercise.
Not surprisingly they developed serious EDs and as soon as they were allowed to eat again they gorged and put on too much weight.

Nothing to do with short bursts of fasting, with reasonably healthy food, for someone who has weight to lose.

The very rare longterm dieters who go into starvation mode are basically repeating the Minnesota mistakes: several months of v low cal diet AND low quality nutrition and usually excessive cardio.

Human studies on prolonged zero-cal fasting - which we NEVER do - found metabolic rate increases after about 16 hours and only reduces significantly after 70-90 hours, when the body starts to use muscle for energy.

Varady's extensive human studies on alternate day fasting - which is more severe than 5:2 - found that with FDs of about 25% TDEE (so 500 calls is fine for most women) even sedentary women retained 99% of muscle.
With moderate exercise, they retained it all, or even gained muscle.
She found 25% was the best compromise to regain muscle while losing weight as swiftly as possible.

Her studies are why I recommend against zero-cal FDs and further recommend that people don't regularly go much below 25% TDEE on FDs

Lovely to see so many newbies !
Welcome to you all

This is also why we have the "rules" of no junk or alcohol on FDs

• the 500 calls should be used to provide decent amounts of nutrients, avoiding anything that is not good for your body

(alcohol on stomach that is nearly empty all day is unhealthy, even though moderate drinking is fine on NFDs)

There has been very extensive research and human trials on several forms of IF, including 5:2, but absolutely nothing published about IFOC (Intermittent Fasting On Crap)

Really interesting BCF and their comments really make sense now as I suspect there is a history of an ED there .

Really interesting BCF! I've managed to keep my 5:2 WOE pretty much to myself at work - on purpose as don't want all the comments etc. I've told a few close colleagues but I've limited it! We tend to have loads of treats and cake around in my office (probably one of the reasons why I ended up piling on the pounds) but I've managed to avoid those - and any questions about why I'm not partaking - on FDs

Good luck all those fasting today. Weds is usually a fast day for me but I have a party this eve so switching to tomorrow. It won't be a mad party so not worried about over doing it, but will have a glass of wine.

All the best everyone!

Yes I should have just kept quiet about it!

FD for me today. Already counting the hours until lunchtime

BCF thank you for that information I was actually wondering about that before. Really interesting to hear how you are all getting on!

I've talked a bit about it to some work colleagues who've noticed that I've lost a stone+ in the last couple of months, but so far everyone has been quite supportive. I've had to be relatively open about the no dairy/wheat/alcohol restrictions due to work lunches and dinners, and the treats that are brought in to the bi-weekly meetings.

Yesterday was my first sub-600 FD. It seems to be getting easier to fast. My first few days of 800kcal were do-able but challenging at times, but last Thursday I did 700kcal and then yesterday 580kcal, and it was fine. My TDEE has stayed the same because my body fat percentage has dropped, I haven't lost any muscle mass, so I guess it's just me getting used to fasting.

I'm still IBS symptom-free, day 11 and counting!

Interesting how most of us have kept 5:2 to ourselves. So good we have our own not-so-secret society here for support!

I have an annoying NSV. My watch is loose on my wrist. It has a metal strap and is already tightened up to it's max so I have to keep sliding it back up.

Have a good Wednesday everyone.

Granny, me too, not my watch, but my wedding ring! I had it sized up between babies and now I'm going to have to get it sized down again - think I'll just wear it on a chain for a while.

SingingGoldfinch - my target is to get to 9 stone, 57kg, and then see how I feel about how I look nekkid in the mirror. As I said, I'm 5ft7, now 59kg, but still have a flabby tum. I'm doing weights and cardio, so trying hard to keep/gain muscle. I reckon another 4 weeks of 5:2 and then I'll be on 6:1.

I'm another one who is keeping shtum about the diet. I just know that once people hear the word 'fast', or 'diet', they'll say negative things. I was motivated to do this by learning that my body fat % was higher than I'd have liked. I was skinny fat. I'm also interested to see if it helps my chronic daily headaches.

Thanks for sharing Lights - and interesting as my motivation for starting 5:2 was similar, I also found that although my bmi was "healthy" my body fat % was a bit high for my liking! I'm 5"9 and was 10.5 stone on my last weigh in (145kg) and heading for 10stone and will then see how I feel! I'm also similar in that I have a really annoying flabby/fatty tummy. I think I've lost weight from my torso which seems to be exaggerating it too. Trying to exercise (HIIT at home) and am having some success but it's slower than I'd like!