5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Good morning everyone :) FD here today, only managed one FD last week and the last few days were a bit rubbish what with being away then at a birthday bbq. Whoops. Back in the game now.

I don't make too many adjustments to my diet on NFDs in terms of what I eat - the reason I like 5:2 is it doesn't ban a particular food group which is what doesn't sit right with me wrt low carbing.

I have however hugely cut down my portion sizes. This took a LOT of willpower at first but is much easier now.

Good luck to ouch and any other Sunday fasters

Well done on your SV, clear An excellent return to fasting.
You sound very focused and positive

That's right, Moomin Nothing is banned on 5:2, other than that the 2 FDs really should be free of alcohol and booze.

The idea is to eat "normally" to maintain on NFDs, which means eating your normal type of food, but - as you & others have found - may need reducing the amount to what your body actually uses, to maintain.

It helps to regard the NFDs as training for how you will need to eat to maintain longterm (which may also need to include occasional FDs)

Thanks for the clarification. The first time I did 5:2 I ate normally on non fast days and still lost, but I tend to lose more if I do fast days combined with lower carb. By lower carb I tend to mean allowing myself one slice of toast, a bit of pasta etc instead of not having any of those things, as opposed to my mother who is doing the blood sugar diet ie no bread/potatoes/rice etc.

Shite FD today. Glad it's nearly over.

Ah what's up Ouch??

I had a FD today. Did a B2B fast already this week BUT we had a takeaway last night. Nothing majorly bad or processed or carb ladien but I want to get into the habit of if I do something a bit naughty to fast the next day to get it out of my system as for me the mindset can be well I've ruined the week now let's go mad. And I really need to break that habit.

I'm going with a new mindset off something bad, get the weight off now not restart next week, week after etc.

Back on the protein shake tomorrow and backside back in the gym I think. I've forgot to take my ADs a few times this week. There not just prescribed for AD but also headaches as one stage I was getting them most days of the week. I've been really bad this weekend but feel loads better now after lots of water.

Well done Sunday fasters. I'm happy because I've now done 4 sub-30 minute parkruns in a row since my first one a month ago, (having previously tried to reach that time for 15 months). Scales are still going down, but at just about three months into this WOE it's the NSVs I'm enjoying the most. Hope everyone had a successful week. I need to be vigilant this week as its my regular monthly work trip to the Lake District staying in a nice hotel. I try to fast the day I arrive (nice soup or salad that night and tell them not to bring bread) and the day I leave (eggs for hotel breakfast, knowing that I will be driving home in the evening so won't be tempted then). I still find FDs easier than NFDs and feel that as a post meno woman I am going to have to keep doing 5:2 long term, even after I've lost the final stone. But I also feel that will be manageable.

Wonderful parkrun NSV, pangolin That's also probably enabled by your SVs.
Some of us maintaining, especially post-meno, continue with 5:2 and eat back the FD deficit, so that we can enjoy bigger NFD meals.
This is especially helpful post-meno with the lower TDEE to counteract the tendency to gain weight that usually accompanies meno and pre-meno.

We all have occasional tough days, ouch Just do your best and then move on.

We don't have "naughty" here, duck
You did very well to keep the takeaway sensible and with 2 FDs that shouldn't send you if track if the following NFD is sensible too.
To avoid feeling punished, I'd suggest only adding an extra FD after a really big social occasion or unplanned binge.

As predicted my 3rd FD actually did nothing in terms of weightloss but I feel more energetic because of it.

Anyone else find they are really sensitive to salt now? I had some ham yesterday and it seemed too salty.

Our family has ditched the fizzy pop for fizzy water and that was too sweet since I've dropped most sugar (apart from 1 sweetener in my coffee)

Happy Monday everyone anyone doing a FD today?

Hi all - looks like there's been some amazing SVs and NSVs over past few days! Good work.

I've been a bit naughty over weekend - we had friends round for dinner and I drank far too much prosecco! Back on it today though with a FD. I've discovered the m&s spirit of summer side salads - you have to look through but some of them are only around 120 per pot. The 2 that I've had so far have been yummy and they're 2 for £4 so a bargain to boot! Perfect for work day lunch on a FD.

Good luck all Monday fasters.

Useful tip about the M&S salads, goldfinch

duck Some folk find their sense of taste enhanced with fasting, in particular that they need less salt & sugar on NFDs.
Also, some find their tolerance for alcohol goes down, so that helps too !

Fasting today, with no weight loss against this week. Seems much harder this time, I think that's the difference between late thirties and 40. Oh well, I'll keep going as fasting has lots of other health benefits, and hopefully it'll all come good eventually. I do find that the more I fast, the better I choose food on NFDs, so I think I'm gradually making better choices. Though DH isn't helping - he'd rather get a takeaway than eat my cooking, and it is very tempting when I'm not home from work until 8.00 or later, and that's a hard time to start cooking.

Hope everyone's FDs are going ok. All on track here so far. One cup of tea with skimmed milk first thing then water all morning and a 130kcal m&s salad for lunch.

I'm feeling fine but quite peckish today so it's been more of a challenge than some recent FDs. Just home from work/school run and topped up with a spoonful of marmite. I can't believe how lush that is on a FD afternoon!!!

Tea will be turkey with kale and sweet potato mash - approx 299kcals so should finish the day just under 500kcals.

Hang in there fasters!!

Cinderella I recommend you have one week on mfp, just for a reality check on NFDs

It's normal to have a few plateaus in between losing chunks of weight, but if you haven't really got in the losing swing this time, then you are probably eating back the FD deficit on NFDs.

Your TDEE may be a bit lower than last time e.g. you are older, or possibly have had some hormonal changes, or become less active, new mess etc
Or you may have got used to eating / drinking a bit more indulgently than before

So no sign of me saving money anytime soon due to FDs. I bought the really expensive wild smoked salmon today as it both looked lovely and had slightly lower calories per 100g than the cheaper versions.

Managed to hold off again till dinner and had smoked salmon, scrambled eggs, a salad of avocado, radishes and tomatoes with a couple of cherries for desert.

I find I'm really making an effort to eat nice food on FDs. And I'm having some success with more mindful eating on NFDs.

Hope everyone has a lovely evening. The weather just turned nice here after a bit of a gloomy day.

Sounds superhealthy & delicious crocus shame about the wallet Fish is great !
That's a good mindfulness NSV

FD done! Felt pretty hungry this morning so had HB egg, then another mid afternoon.
I tried a pasta and roasted veg ready meal from Asda that was ok - all came in around 470cals but probably slightly over due to minuscule tasting of kids dinner to check ok!
Did a good swim - 64 lengths - 1280m which felt good.
I'm starting back to work tomorrow - I think I'll find FDs hard when at a desk all day.

Good FD yesterday, rocket

Good luck to any Tuesday fasters

Thanks BigChoc, good advice as always. I'm a bit less active than before (one HIIT class but no runs at the moment) so I'll aim for a couple of runs as well as the class next week. I'll try tracking what I eat, but since I meal plan and it doesn't change much, I'm fairly sure that nothing other than snacking has changed. And I'm working on the snacking.

I'm also going to try and drink more water, as I tend to go all day on a couple of coffees (I don't generally feel thirsty) and maybe that will help, too.

Everyone - Best weight loss Tip: No snacking, ever !

Snacking can pack in a lot more calories than you think; even "healthy" snacks increase the total calories per day - few people reduce meal size sufficiently to compensate.
Snacking also keep insulin raised all day, which increases hunger and also hinders fat burning.

I've posted these graphs from Dr Jason Fung before (he treats kidney patients), to show the difference between the fasting-dominant state that most humans were in for the thousands of years before snacking began, vs the insulin-dominant state of snackers:

I find not snacking very hard. I'm also an emotional eater and definitely see food, particularly sugary food, as a reward. Being busy busy busy helps, but only if I have proper meals ready to go or else I get over hungry then grab crap on the go. It really isn't any wonder I'm fat!

On a more positive note, much better fast day today than on Sunday. May try for a mini-fast on Thursday to make up for only doing one FD last week.

Ouch Do you have times that are worst for snacking? Mine is when the kids are eating tea, and I'm cooking / watching them, knowing that I won't eat my supper for another three hours. And then on work days, it's getting home and being tempted to raid the fridge for whatever is in there, rather than start cooking at 8.00.

The first one is unavoidable (unless I stop eating with DH, but that's our only bit of time together in the week) but the second is easier to manage, if I plan ahead and have things that I can cook reallly quickly and with minimal effort.

At the moment on mat leave, mid afternoon and mid morning when the tedium of poo and naps is kicking in and the next meal seems so far away.

Sugary snacks are the worst:
they spike insulin, levels then crash them, so hunger increase again.
That's an unhealthy cravings spiral.
Excess calories from sugar (or alcohol) are preferentially stored around the waist, the worst place.

tip To avoid nibbling, or to stop nibbling once started:
Drink a glass of water, then clean your teeth
The fresh taste and the disinclination to get teeth dirty again often help psychologically to avoid eating

Emotional eaters:

If you really need to munch, keep a supply of raw carrots, celery, peppers . Chew these thoroughly raw - no dips - as they are v healthy and have few calories.

Reward yourself with non-food treats: Doing nails, new colour, download a new book or video

Try to concentrate on another activity, to distract you:
That could be cleaning out cupboards, scrubbing floors, any useful chores that need doing
Or a burst of exercise: a walk / jog outside, dance to your fav music
Keep hands busy: art, craftwork