5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Kitchen closed for me too! 700 cals, not to bad for a start.

oldcharter With b2b FDs, you can have 650 cals.
However, almost everyone finds them too hard.

Like ouch, I recommend moving the 2nd FD to Saturday instead

That's a decent start moomin

First meal after an FD
Tomorrow, have a medium sized nutritious breakfast, but not a huge meal on an empty stomach.
I suggest protein, carbs & fat
e.g. porridge, nuts & fruit / pnut butter on toast with a banana / eggs & tomatoes on toast / bacon & mushroom sarnie ...

I recommend you avoid fruit juice when breaking your fast (concentrated sugar and acidic on an empty tum)
Also avoid breakfast cereal - high GI spikes insulin and likely to make you hungrier, especially after a fast.

Just don't look in the dessert freezer SingingGoldfinch or you might be too tempted to obliterate all your hard work :)

Thanks choc!

When I've done this previously I've rarely felt hungry the next morning, would you say breakfast is a necessity?

cinderella If scheduling doesn't always work out, Mosely has breakfast & evening meal on FDs, to eat with his family.
Maybe call them your "extra nutrient days" ?

You could have say
B: yoghurt & berries / spinach omelette - the DC have their usual
S: Salmon & mixed salad dressed with lemon / balsamico - add bread & mayo for the DC, shouldn't be too obvious if you don't drizzle your dressing instead and have a huge salad

Even go up to 800 cals on a few days when it's difficult to disguise

moomin No need to eat breakfast if you don't feel particularly hungry (that's just a myth sponsored by the cereal industry)

I've decided against the back to back FD'S, thanks for the advice everyone... I'll have Thurs and Sunday as FD's instead...

Well done Monday fasters 😀

I fasted successfully yesterday and ate ok today.

I'm fasting again tomorrow and have a ready meal and vegetables for tomorrow evening.

Sounds good, calzone

Well done, Monday fasters. Get into gear, Tuesday fasters

that's just a myth sponsored by the cereal industry

^^ Agreed! And needing to eat every two hours is a myth sponsored by McVities.

Between various birthday celebrations and trips away, I've had 7 NFD in a row with no exercise.

Was supposed to fast today, but couldn't face it. Went to a kettlebells class tonight and I'm now feeling set for a Wed. FD.

Will check in tomorrow to keep me on track.

Thanks BigChoc but they'll notice me not eating lunch if I'm with them, and that's the issue. I can fast easily if they're at school as they know I sometimes have breakfast later as I prefer to run on an empty stomach, and they are still young enough to eat at 5.30 (DH and I eat nearer 8.30, because of work hours). It's just days when we're together all the time. Even weighing things out becomes a 'why are you doing that?'. I may be being over-sensitive, but I've already fielded quite a few questions about weight and body shape from dd1 (who dances, and that's a very body conscious environment), so I'm really careful about what messages I'm sending them. I think the solution might be to do some 16:8, or accept that I'll have to fast on two of my three work days. I'm just reluctant to fast with only one day in between (which is what work days would mean), as when I've done that I've found it really hard.

I've just realised it's almost a month since I've eaten any sugar, processed crap or treats. I feel a lot better for it and my spots have disappeared.

I've not done any cardio for a while but I'm keeping up with my toning.

I have completely cut out breakfast even after FDs and am eating considerably less and I'm not hungry much anymore.

My DH was saying last week how he can't understand why I've lost weight and he hasn't as we "eat the same meals" we don't. I cook entirely different and he eats tonnes of kids cereal. MFPd and weighed his portion and showed him. The last few days he's been missing breakfast and eating when I do about 1 in the afternoon. I only just realised this today and he's now having eggs not the cereal and boom he's 6lbs down. He's been accidentally Imtermitant fasting. He's not overweight in the slightest but shows how much rubbish is in that stuff.

BCF may I ask, what carbs do you have on your NFDs? I've read about not having starchy carbs but where does potatoes with skins on come in to it? Avoid or is it ok? Thinking about it more as maintenance wise?

duck Personally, I go low carb on FDs, but not on most NFDs.
I do avoid junk carbs though and I try to keep portion size sensible for even healthy ones.
Others may thrive on a different system

Starchy Carbs

If someone is insulin resistant or have a problem with starchy carbs, then I'd recommend trying low carb.
Otherwise, there is no need for most folk to low carb unless they enjoy it.

Mosely has a great quiz on his bsd site to check if you have a carb problem: Addicted to Carbs ?

Most folk do fine with carbs, but just need to modify 3 aspects:

1. Type of carbs

Almost everyone would do better cutting right down on high GI high cal "crap carbs"

• sugary treats like cake, biscuits, breakfast cereal / sugary fizz or lattes / crisps, pizza, pies, low quality bread / deep fried carbs.

If you like potato, go for boiled or baked, especially with skins, not mash or fried.
Sweet potato is a good choice.

Mosely suggests switching away from heavily processed / wheat to
quinoa, bulgur (cracked wheat), whole rye, whole-grain barley, wild rice, buckwheat.

Switch from sugary / wheat breakfast cereal to steelcut oats & bran, or flaxmeal

Also boost legumes, i.e. lentils, peas, beans which can help stabilize blood sugar. Have them daily.

2. Carb Balance
   Boost non-starchy veg in several colours, including some raw veg, to replace some starchy carbs - ideally aim for half the plate to be veg.
   Note: Mosely recommends no more than 2 portions fruit per day. Aim for 5 portions different veg.

3. Appropriate carb portion size for your body

For most people on 5:2, that's max 100g carbs cooked weight at a big meal. A portion porridge oats is max 50g
See what works for you.
If you are vegan, or if you exercise a lot, you may do better on more carbs.

Excess carbs are stored as bodyfat, along with 3-4 x their weight in water. Hence "carb bloat"

Well done on your spots NSV, duck and to your DH for his SV

Thanks for the really helpful advice on carbs BigChoc - I'm never sure what I'm doing on that front so it's very useful info!

2nd FD of the week for me here and feeling ok about it. I'm doing polling duty tomorrow which will either end up being a third FD if we're really busy, or a bad day if we're not as I'm bound to want to snack to get me through the long day!

Good luck all those fasting today!! We've got this!

cinderella It helps to explain to the DC that they need to grow (even early 20s naturally fill out from coltish teens ) but that you have stopped growing.
However, that may not be enough as DC today are very aware of weight - totally different to the childhood of those like me who grew up in the 1950s-1970s.

What helps - FDs & NFDs:

• No snacking or nibbling between meals
• Drink water, not drinks with calories
• Cook meals where veg, starchy carbs, sauces, protein are in separate bowls. So you can more easily change the balance of your individual meal, rather than the volume.
• Avoid gravy, creamy/oily sauces, dressings, dips etc - usually calorie bombs - on your own plate.
• On salads, avoid mayo, crutons, bacon, cheese - can each add 100s of cals On pasta etc don't have extra grated cheese
• If there is pud, have fruit on the table as an alternative. So you can have e.g. an apple with skin, which takes time to eat and chew properly
• Avoid preparing meals with "double carbs," because it is more obvious if you are having no/ v small portions of 2 starches.
• No second helpings for you
• Use 30 or 40 ml scoops and memorise the weights of scoops of e.g. raw oats, rice.
• Train yourself to eyeball portions of cooked carbs, meat, pnut butter etc Take a standard plate for yourself and fill it with more than half veg - never any need to weigh that if just boiled or steamed.

16:8

• Without FDs, usually only works if it's daily 16:8, not just on 2-3 days If you find it tough, many women do well on 14:8
• Also only works if you are actually cutting out a meal - in your case breakfast would be easiest - AND not compensating at other meals

Good for you on polling duty, Goldfinch An important public service

You might be better taking 1-2 quick healthy meals with you, as it will presumably be several hours.
Say a ready salad with protein and / or a homemade sandwich (so you can choose good bread, veg and what goes in)

Since you may be tempted to snack between meals, take some washed carrots and / or celery with you and chew very thoroughly. No dip, just raw veg - so low cal & low GI it doesn't matter.
Do not snack on fruit, or you'll probably get hungrier - have it with a meal.

And of course, take plenty of bottled water.
Some sugar-free gum helps if you need a fresh taste and to keep the jaws moving.

Thanks BCF that's wonderful advice.

I am a carb hound and prior to restart of 5:2 would eat a big carb heavy meal and then be hungry and after more food before bed.

I've tried to drop them temporarily and up my protein and veg and the difference is unbelievable my last meal is at 6pm - 1pm the next day.

I think rice and pasta will be out pretty much for good. I've switched to cauli rice / soya no carb noodles and there a ok substitute. In a curry or spaghetti Bol there fine.

Always do potatoes skins on in air fryer for convenience and now I've got olive oil a spot of that in it and they will be delicious.

I can't be trusted with bread so if I fancy some I tend to go to lidl and buy a individual protein roll. I'm partial to German bread but I am the only one who likes it and I can't be trusted with a full loaf as It's too yummy.

I may turn today into a FD, I'm going to see how the day progresses.

Happy Wednesday to all the fasters!

I love this thread, feels like I am always learning. Yesterday's FD went well and feel confident about my 2nd full FD tomorrow. It feels good to be back into the structure, it takes so much of the thinking out of eating and for me that's a huge bonus. The carbs info is really interesting - what kind of bread counts as 'good quality' as would rather buy these (for the few times I do eat bread)?

Really glad to hear about the no breakfast thing - there are definitely NFD that I could go without it. It just seems so unnatural after years of 'breakfast is the most important meal of the day' indoctrination. Yet in my teens and early 20s I never had breakfast and was fine. My DH is crazy about breakfast foods but I've never been that fussed, will leave him to it on a Saturday morning now I think!

One more question, in the 2 portions of fruit maximum thing - does that include tomatoes?

Cook meals where veg, starchy carbs, sauces, protein are in separate bowls.

God the thought of the washing up makes me shudder (we have no dishwasher).

NFD today. Should be a FD but at a work event tonight and know I don't have enough willpower to resist the canapés.

Had tomato on toast for breakfast, no lunch as wasn't hungry but have just had a latte.

Merricat Mosely meant only sweet fruit, i.e. "culinary" fruit not botanical fruit like tomatoes, avocados, zucchini etc which are unlimited.

"Good" bread is where the ingredients are minimally processed, wholegrain - as compared to industriallly mass-produced white bread, which is high GI.

Check the ingredients and look for wholemeal / wholegrain / wholewheat flour (different names for the same thing) as 1st ingredient in the list.
Officially a product can only be called wholemeal / wholegrain if it is at least 51% wholegrain.
Also good are added seeds, flaxmeal, oats, bran.
Avoid added honey, sweeteners, preservatives, E-numbers etc

Evening everyone and well done weds fasters. ...

Nfd today and I'm about 450cals saved for Friday. Friend wants to go Indian so going to steer clear of the rice and naan if I can and choose some veg side dishes instead. Anyone have any good tips 😀

FD tomorrow, got a busy day so should be okay. Its good to read about the breakfast myth, I always feel hungrier and eat more if I have breakfast and yet I'm constantly told I should be eating it

Skip breakfast whenever you want, oldcharter
It would tend to boost weight loss, as that usually means you are combining 5:2 with 16:8 or 14:10 - many 5:2ers do this regularly.

For Indian, chicken tikka is a good choice, as you have all the spices, without the sauce - check they don't add sauce, because some occasionally do.
Raita (mint yoghurt) goes well with that
If you are vegetarian, then palak paneer (indian cheese with spinach)
Maybe share the rice with someone, or if you want to avoid it completely, then swap to a chickpea dish
Personally, I go for any veggy side with aubergine or spinach & tomato

Well done Wednesday fasters! I'm finishing on about 467kcals - so pretty good and that's my FDs done for the week. Quite a satisfying feeling!!

As I said before, I'm on polling duty tomorrow which is going to be a very long day - need to be at polling station at 6am and will be there till it closes at 10pm. The danger is obviously to snack on bad stuff throughout the day as it's not easy to take definite breaks, but I have tried hard to pack a sensible selection - I have porridge pot for breakfast, chopped fruit for morning snacking, a chicken salad for lunch and a Sainsbury's be good to yourself ready meal for dinner plus hummus and celery sticks for snacking on. I have also got a big bag of chocolate buttons but will share those around. Just thought I might need an energy boost at some point during the day!!!