5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done, bilbomum! You were the same starting weight I was when I started and same height. I'm hovering around 9st4 now and the last 7lbs I want to lose are staying put! It's so hard to stay motivated as the scales aren't moving.

Thank you! I'm guessing I'll plateau soon and then it will be hard going but hopefully we'll all get there if we keep going. Hopefully my 'cake a day' habit is now banished forever although I'm still hanging onto wine but three nights a week rather than seven .

Will defo try to be less snacky on next fast day. Snacking is def my natural eating style, unfortunately so are big meals

Notreally if you find the 500 hard it is worth trying the blood sugar diet for a bit, quite a few people on that thread find it suits them better. I really liked BSD but am enjoying switching it up to proper 5:2 now (although its only been 1 day ;) ).

Bilbomum - amazing success! A stone in 6 weeks - I'm very impressed.....I don't think I could manage 3 FDs a week - well done to you! Ha! But maybe I could for a stone in 6 weeks a la your amaze SV

Second FD coming up tomorrow - am feeling a touch better planned this week as the salad and the ever faithful eggs are in the house so we shall see how it goes. One thing I do know is that I LOVE the other side of my second FD in the week.....in fact, worryingly, I'm already fast-forwarding to this time tomorrow when I'll be ready to eat and it'll almost be over

Notreallyhappy - hopefully some successes at my end will inspire you to keep going too

Good luck everyone - another good week for you all I hope

Hello all

My second day on 5:2 today, first fast day. I could quite happily eat my own arm at the moment!

Looking forward to getting home and eating dinner, though it won't be until about 8pm.

Have to do my second fast day tomorrow as I have plans from Thursday onwards which mean I don't want to fast. Suspect I shall be quite grumpy by the end of the day tomorrow...

Had my first FD yesterday .. Cappuccino for breakfast and two small sandwiches for dinner with whole grain bread egg and soft cheese .. summed up all within 500 cals

My first FD consisted of fruit and low fat yoghurt for lunch, then I have a 300 cal haddock and leek gratin from M&S waiting for me at home.

Had one cup of tea this afternoon when I started to feel like killing people, otherwise I had diet drinks.

That's brilliant, Bilbomum
Well done on your SV and especially those 5" from your waist - that's makes a real difference to health and shape.

You are right that it's important to train yourself to eat for maintenance - you want to lose this weight once and never have to do so again, except for a few holiday lb.
Learning to stay within TDEE on NFDs helps train for maintenance.
Many folk maintain on 6:1 or even 5:2 , to allow more indulgent weekends and not worrying about aocial events.

Whatever maintenance system you choose, it is important to weigh at least weekly and resume 5:2 immediately you regain 4 lb.
Many maintainers return to 5:2 the day after each holiday, until they are bxk at goal

Welcome, Mama
Why not plan an FD this week and make a start ?

Notreally You could try the 5:2 BSD, which is daily Mediteranean low carb (basically standard low carb, but encourages beans, lentils & peas also full fat plain yoghurt)
plus 2 FDs of 800 cals

Yumyum The most useful 5:2 tip: NO snacking, EVER
This really makes a difference and was first discovered by our lovely maintainer TalkinPeace

Even healthy snacks raise blood sugar, which hinders fat-burning.

Snacks also increase the total daily calories - the snack calories are more than the slightly lower meal size (and some people find snacking / raised blood sugar actually increases meal size too)

Dr Jason Fung, who treats T2 patients for kidney & liver disease, has good graphics to explain how the introduction of snacks in about 1980 has totally transformed the days of the snacking population to insulin-dominated.
You see that the snackers only get into fasting mode overnight, whereas those who just eat 3 meals can also burn fat between meals:

Well done on your 1st FD, Mozarella

Hang on there, Monkey you are doing really well on your 1st FD and not long to go
I always recommend an early night on FDs, as part of making them "pampering" self-care days and also to boost fasting benefits.

For those who find 500 cal FDs too tough and don't want daily low carb on 5:2 BSD or BSD, an alternative way to lose weight is to have 3x mini-FDs:

Mon+Wed+Fri have up to 1000 cals, the other 4 days are NFDs
That system enables weight loss and it can even help you ease into 5:2 by getting used to semi-fasting.

I think I will take your advice and head to bed when DP gets in at 9ish!

Hi fellow fasters

week 1 day 1 Fd done - and the day went well!

No brekkie

Veggie miso soup for lunch

So much more water than normal - over 2l

And started well with a planned stir fry for dinner - but got invited to inlaws for dinner as we have no kitchen and i ate Waaay too much :(

Reckon i did 950 calories rather than the 400 i shoud have had!

Stil a lot less than a normal day but not a good end to my first fast day after not esting all day. I didnt snack at all in the daytime at work which is a victory!

So leason learnt - dont undo a whole days good work - stick to the plan as much as possible and control myself in the evenings of FD.
Not sure if TOTM had a role to play- always extra hungry then!!

Nfds might try to get to the gym in the evenings which is my danger time for snacking.

Still happy that ive actually started and as so many of you say its now about finding out HOW to make it work for me - which it will.

Oh and added incentive, booked a holiday for mid April so got 2 months to look and feel a lot healthier and smaller bellied and faced than i currently do!

Would i be better doing 4:3 or stick to 5:2 to lose 20lbs in next 2 months? Any thoughts?

Thanks xxx

Hi all.. b2b done... 2 days & under 750 on both, following BSD med diet principles.I'll take that as a nsv just getting it done. Just got back into the 11s.... it's been up & down between the 2 for weeks. I'm going to stick with Med diet for damage limitation.

Minny Weight loss is overwhelmingly down to achieving a weekly calorie deficit.
Those who are insulin-resistant would also need to cut right down on sugary carbs and on other carb portions.
Excessive alcohol can also be a roadblock for weight loss, because it stops fat-burning.
Staying within TDEE on NFDs is at least as important as nailing the FDs

What is key wrt weekly calorie deficit is consistency longterm

• adding extra FDs won't help if you feel deprived and over-compensate / binge on NFDs.

==> So, any system to boost loss must be sustainable for you as an individual

500 cal FDs may be impractical if you are without a kitchen for a while.
If you find it too tough to stick to 500 cals, then try the system 800-1000 cals on Mon+Wed+Fri
That has the advantage of reducing the number of NFDs and may be a more sustainable form of 4:3

What can often boost loss: accurate information about what you actually consume

• I suggest mfp for at least a week, to check if you need to address portion control, sugary treats, crisps, takeaways, alcohol etc

Well done on your NSV, Notreally and your SV
Daily BSD low carb Mediteranean and adding 2 or more weekly 800-cal FDs is a good healthy fasting WOL, which should continue weight loss if you can keep the NFDs around TDEE

Hallo all,
starting again today, I'll read through all the thread later. I would like to re-educate myself on healthy eating and control portion size and to loose 2.5-2st , most from around the waist.

I am 50 , somewhere in process of the menopause, recently lost my main employment and been comfort eating...... So looking for something positive to do with this extra time.....

Started today with liquid breakfast of cup of tea and a cup of coffee.

Thought I'd say Hello to the BigChoc 5:2 people. I'm a 'lifer' in that I shed 2.5 stone in 10 months, got to 12 stone and have been there for the last year through xmas and holidays. I've obviously improved my eating habits and I feel good. I'm just under a BMI of 28 and still about a stone above a healthy weight. I know I need to improve my NFD repertoire of meals to go down that last bit, but that will come as my kids' picky eating improves. Welcome to all new starters and hello to all old timers. And thank you to BigChoc for all.the time and encouragement you give.

Right...had an early night last night so onwards to my second FD (B2B).

Same plan today as yesterday - fruit and low fat yoghurt for dinner and I have a 370 cal M&S beef stew to look forward to for dinner. Plus lots of diet drinks and a cup of tea if I get desperate

stumblymonkey

Good luck - I'm into my second FD too! Black Coffee all day, with sugar free rhubarb and custards (8 calories each and lasts ages) when I get desperate, then 100 calorie tomato soup when I get home, then prawns and courgetti for dinner (200 calories). Rice cakes to top me up to 500 just before bed so I can sleep!

That beef stew will taste amazing tonight

Bigchoc
Thank you!

So do you mean do the 800-100 NFDs on mon/wed/fri and tue/thurs would then be 500 cal FDs?

Or m//w/fri as 3 higher cal

I dont drink any alcohol so thats easy, but def need to work on my portions and snacking.

Am using MFP so sure that will be an eye opener 😱😱

mimmymoobear - no, I think BigChoc means that M, W and F would be 800-1000 FDs and so you then wouldn't have any 500 FDs. They count as more achievable FDs but you would only have 4 NFDs with the 3 FDs of 800-1000. An easier 4:3.....?? Esp helpful if you are without a kitchen! And I must say I feel your pain as that will be us soon too, eek! Hadn't really thought how all this dusty mess could interrupt my weight loss plans as well as just my life in general!!!

Right - it's after 10am and I need to get to Sainsbury's which is not good planning for a FD but them's the breaks! I'd rather do it now than later when I might feel hungrier!!

Good luck today everyone and I reiterate the PP above - thanks so much to you BigChoc....you do A LOT of answering Qs etc etc

< waves to fusspot >
Very well done for maintaining and also keeping healthy habits
If you aren't in a desperate hurry, it's gentler to have a healthy maintenance break as you have done, after a few months in the weight loss phase.
It gives your body time to consolidate the loss, get used to its smaller size and rebalance

Sequin nailed it, minny Those 4 NFDs should average around TDEE.
Yes, it is a much gentler form of 4:3. It requires you to maintain on NFDs, which is good training - some folk on the full monty 4:3 get into a fast / binge cycle which is unhealthy and also doesn't lose much weight.

Welcom, magical
Fasting is an effective method for weight loss meno / post-meno and also for those with PCOS.
It can help resolve some hormonal issues, e.g. insulin metabolism, that prevent fat loss .

Enjoy your prawns, Sonya and your beef stew, StumblyMonkey
Good luck to all the Wednesday fasters

Ooooo - thought I'd pop back in today to say that, so far, I haven't planned FDs very well (bar buying salad and ensuring we had eggs in!) but, as I found myself in Sainsbury's earlier, I had a little look at the lower calorie ready meals and found an interesting one which I am going to have this evening. It's bolognese but with courgettini instead of spaghetti! I've not tried courgettini yet so here goes nothing! Could end up a healthy way to drop my carb intake (I just LOVE pasta dishes!) if I end up liking it - who knows! Will update

Thanks Sequin and BicChoc - got it!
Will see how I go whcih one can work.

Sequin - Nightmare not having a working kitchen, but keep reminding myself itll be worth it when done!
Also an ideal time to use ready meals and easy/non cook
Low calorie food to help me stick to the my Tdee calories

Not a big soup eater but really liked the veggie miso soup so happy with that for lunch on FDs.

Welcome aboard Magic
well done Sonyaya and Stumbly! Im one FD down and can already see this WOE working well. Definitely made more aware of snacking and just eating for the sake of it!