5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

toying with the idea of a FD today, which will be my second this week. Haven't done two in a week for ages but not able to exercise this week due to recovery from walk.

Haven't eaten yet today. Have prawns ready for my usual FD tea with stir fry and tinned tomatoes. See how I get on. My hungry times on a FD are now and then between 4-5pm....

Goldfinch - i've only just started including exercise on FDs - been slowly increasing the exercise from beginning of January from 20-25 mins 5 x per week to around an hour 6 x a week. Having recently joined a gym, the classes I want to do don't fit in with my run days/fast days, so I'm taking each FD exercise as it comes and see how I feel.

BigChoc - any advice on an exercise to get rid of the fat around the top of the arms - don't know what it's called - it's the bit in front of my arm-pit I try to stuff into my bra every day but which slops out over the top!

Destiny and all others on FD - lets have a good one together!

Emgee The Konjak rice & pasta are healthy and v low cal.
Just a matter of whether you like them. Some of us think they taste like fish poo

I enjoy cauliflower rice, butternut squash spaghetti. I'm lazy - I just get the supermarket prepared pkts
I bake them in the oven. I have to keep checking them every few mins - my first attempt was burnt offerings
Even sweet potato spaghetti is pretty low cal, because you get what looks a large amount for say 100g

Granny Sadly, there's no way to "spot-reduce" bodyfat. You have to reduce the total %, which is overwhelmingly determined by what you eat & drink, rather than exercise.
Where it goes first and where it lingers last is down to genetics and hormonal balance, food types etc
We know that, for most folk, excess sugary junk & alcohol particularly lead to storage around your middle, but that's about it.

What you can do is firm up the flab, especially where you may be losing fat.
So, for you I recommend triceps dips on a bench or step. Straighter legs make it tougher
Start with say 3 sets of 8 reps and work up to doing a set of 40 a couple of times per week.

To generally tighten up your body, try to do at least a dozen pressups and deep bodyweight squats 3 times per week.
That would work all the large muscle groups and help improve shape.

I agree with ladyintheradiator about quite enjoying FDs;

They save me time in meal prep and I find I have extra energy - I don't exceed 90 mins fasted though, because with the FD low glycogen stores, that's when my body finds it tough to burn more fat sufficiently quickly.

So, FDs are not the time for longer duration medium intensity exercise like a long run or swim.
Intense exercise works well, HIIT and heavy lifting, for 60 mins, then maybe a short cooldown walk

I posted on the exercise thread that I had a PB on a recent FD:
I did spin class then lifting - and unintentionally (!) my PB:
a set of 10 reps each leg press and calf raises @149 kg (328.5lb)
I have a visual handicap and I thought I had set leg press to 141 kg < duh >

Thanks BigChoc - Deep squats I think I can manage but I think it'll take me the whole week to do 3 x 12 press ups! Will add those and tricep dips to my routine.

Just back from kettle bell class. I think I was the only one having to use a 4kg baby bell. Sadly, no 6kg, so I used the 8kg one for only a few of the exercises. Still, means plenty of room for improvement! I may get a 6kg to practice with at home.

FD going okay at the moment - had a small protein shake after kettle bell class and will take a small prawn salad with me to eat between today's afternoon and evening class. Then finally have soup for when I get home at about 10 p.m.

I'm sooo hungry!

managing so far. Lots of water, lots of black decaf coffee. two small hard boiled eggs at 2pm

Destiny hang on in there. Big glasses of water. And something which works for me when I'm doing something tough is to think of someone you know who would love to be where you are. When I've been on a difficult run I think of one of my DGCs who is severely disabled and will never be able to run, or a friend who's on the kidney transplant list and whose life is one long slog of dialysis and restricted food.

It's okay to feel hungry - we can be hungry together and we have enough fat to convert to energy so it doesn't matter anyway!

Thanks! Going out to buy some fizzy water now.

do get to a point on a FD where I think to give up now would have wasted all the day's effort....

Hang in there those on FD today!! It's so worth it when you reach the end of the day on target!!!

I'm so impressed with all the exercise that's going on here - and feeling rather lazy as a result. I really struggle to fit it in - i know that sounds like a feeble excuse but I work almost full time and have two dc to run around after in evenings, ferrying to activities etc. I'm finding it really tricky to fit any exercise in. I think I should probably get up early and do some HIIT training first thing but just so tired at the moment I can't summon the energy! I do walk an average of 5km a day though so I'm not a complete sloth!

Thanks for the advice re. the dizziness BigChoc. Unfortunately I have been doing all of the things you recommend (amazed by how good a spoonful of marmite is midway through an FD afternoon!) although I could probably cut back on the fruit a bit. I'm hoping my body will get used to it but will consider increasing calories if there's no improvement soon as can't cope with feeling like I did yesterday every FD.

Today is a NFD but I've been flat out at work so not eaten all that much. I'll have a big dinner later though.

Goldfinch Sounds like you need more cals on FDs.

Try an alternate scheme (which I did the first few months) and which has worked for several folk:
Instead of 2 FDs, have 3 x miniFDs (800-1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri

Short of time to exercise ?
Try Mosely's Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes, 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP
These supershort concentrated bursts are surprisingly good at improving fitness and is ulon metabolism

Hang on, Destiny You've managed this long. be a shame to miss out.
Have some protein - chicken breast or a hard-boiled egg with a bit if salad & lemon is worth the extra calories. 600 cals is a decent FD and miles better than giving up

Chant "I can have it tomorrow"

Thanks for that exercise thread, just did some butt blasting ones!

Successful FD here.

I woke sleepy and hungry and there was a while in the middle of the day when I doubted I'd make it, but I popped on here for some inspiration and went for a brisk walk with the pram.

Was super busy all day, so didn't eat until 9pm. Had vegetable coconut curry followed by pineapple. Just under 500 cals.

Hoping I can have 3 successful NFDs now.

I did it too! Am also writing down what I ate so I can keep track of it. Going out for dinner tomorrow and I'll REALLY enjoy it!

Well done Destiny!

I did a food shop today, so I'm tucked in bed to avoid the temptation of the kitchen.

Successful FD here too. Just finished off my soup, total calories for the day a couple of licks over 500. Washing up can wait until morning as kitchen is closed!

Morning everyone - second FD here. Looking forward to my marmite 'soup' later!!!! Good luck everyone fasting today. Despite just starting this week, I already feel so much better. I think it's because I have regained control of my eating, or should I say, snacking habits. That alone feels so good. Plus, I put on a pair of 'too small' jeans yesterday, and they fit am ignoring the fact that the muffin top is still there and focussing instead on the fact that they zipped up easily!

You nailed it, Desiny !
Well done to, Maz, Granny too

Congrats on your jeans NSV, EmGee
Sounds like you've lost fat on the lower abdomen. Another good week or so and hopefully you'll see the muffin top shrink too

We'll done all those who had successful FDs yesterday and hope all is going well to those doing it today.

Have you seen the coverage saying that the figure has increased to 800 calories on FDs? What's the thinking on this BigChoc? www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/12/good-news-dieters-52-relaxes-rules-allows-800-calories-day/amp/

The original 5:2 set 500 cals for women and 600 cals for men, based roughly on 1/4 of the average TDEE.

As I posted before, I expect 800 FDs work better for men, with their higher tdee! since they generally lose much more easily on any diet, 5:2 included.

Even at 600 FDs, their FD calorie deficit is usually higher than for a woman on 500 cals.
Also, their higher TDEE makes it easier for their "natural" eating to remain within TDEE on NFDs. So, they don't "eat back" the Fd deficit as much.

From all our threads, I would say that women who lose quite easily, or don't mind losing more slowly, could also go to 800.
This is typically taller and / or very active women, who are not affected by medications, perimenopause or meno.

Also, some maintainers do 800 FDs anyway

However, women who struggle to lose 1lb weekly - usually because they struggle to keep within TDEE - may find this slows their loss.
It may not - if it helps them manage NFDs

I always advise that if you can't manage 500 cal FDs, it's better to do 700-800 cals than give up.
However, some women with low TDEE / "hard losers !" may need to do the 3 miniFDs instead, i.e. 700-1000 on Mon+Wed+Fri.

btw, quite a number of big men have TDEE of 3200 or more.
Hence ¼ of this would be 800 cals on FDs

FD for me tomorrow - going into my 3rd week. We've had visitors this weekend and I have not counted a single calorie since Thursday so it might come as a bit of a shock! I'm planning to try to stick to the usual 500 calories and see how I get on with the lightheadedness. Hoping all others on FD tomorrow get on ok.

Good luck, Goldfinch
Plan an extra reserve of 300 healthy cals in case you feel lightheaded.
This WOE needs to be sustainable, so do allow yourself the extra, maybe until your body adapts fully.

Mosely wrote in the BSD that those with blood sugar issues are the group that tend to do struggle on 500 cal FDs.
So, since you've already tried the other suggestions to help FDs, see if more cals help.

Also, consider the alternative system of Mon+Wed+Fri on up to 1000 cals