5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Keep going, Blossom and all the other Tuesday fasters. Not long to go

Rocket you are doing well and you've inspired me to go swimming again!

I am losing the plot today. Woke up staaaarviiimgg. Well, v hungry feeling I'm not used to and had cornflakes but still hungry so had 2 fried eggs and toast. Salad for lunch but hungry at dinner time so held off... then lost the plot and went for the Kettle Chips (3 mini packs slightly shared by DH) and 3 gin and feverctree tonjcs... buggerration!!!!!!!

Sorry to hear your day didn't quite go to plan AnniHoo. Just a blip I'm sure.

I'm on a FD again today. After struggling on Monday I'm not looking forward to it, but my weigh in yesterday is spurring me on. I'm going for nothing but black/green tea until lunchtime, a boiled egg salad for lunch and then a lentil spag bol for tea (we're eating that as a family and it's very low cal so I'll just skip the spaghetti and heap of cheese I usually put on top!) Not feeling too hungry now so hoping I'll be ok today. Good luck all others fasting today.

Good luck, fasters

Goldfinch For future FDs, some folk like cauliflower rice or butternut squash spaghetti as a v low accompaniment. It boosts your veg too.

Don't worry, Annie There are tweaks to help avoid that kind of NFD in future

Cornflakes and most other breakfast cereals are so sugary and high GI that they can spike hunger for the whole day
Much better choice is porridge, not the instant kind with added sweet things, but the proper oat flakes or oat bran. Add your own fruit.
If you are having eggs, try poached, or have a more filling veg omelette.

For NFD lunch & dinner, boost protein and veg to fill you up. If you are still hungry, have more of the proper food.
On the NFD after an FD, your glycogen stores will be low, hence the carb hunger. Maybe add say a jacket potato or boiled potato to your salad lunch
If you were trying to cut the cals, then look at the dressing instead - you could reduce the amount and / or have balsamic vinegar or lemon dressing.

Nothing wrong with a g&t , but have a big glass of water as well with your meal - thirst may have led to #2 and 3

cauli rice is low cal accompaniment < arrgh >

good FD yesterday, 2 pounds off this morning.

I HATE cauli rice unfortunately!! I have only tried pre-packed stuff so maybe making my own would be better.

I love cauliflower rice! So quick and easy. I've only just discovered it.

Had a great NFD yesterday, so feeling positive. Hopefully I can have the same success today. I have a HIIT class this afternoon, and a mountain of laundry to get through before then.

Will prob have scrambled eggs for lunch and dinner tonight will be lentil soup. Knowing what I'm having and that it's already made definitely helps me stay on track.

I saw a recipe for butternut squash steaks that looked interesting. It's under 500 cals too!

I made my own - just grated it and stuck it in the microwave for 3 mins then added salt, pepper and a squeeze of lemon juice. Though there are much more exciting things you can do with it!

Good morning all. Checking in for FD2. I am planning to make a green veg soup for lunch and then some chicken and spinach concoction for dinner. I have a bottle of low cal ginger beer in the fridge and am ready for the day. Good luck to all my fellow fasters.

Congratulations on your walk Blossom - if only the weight loss scales were more consistent our moods wouldn't change within the few seconds it takes to get on and off them! Wondering if the food that you had enroute was quite high in salt which would cause water retention? Pleased to see that your successful FD saw a good loss.

Annie - the only way I can manage to avoid snacking in an evening is to not have snacking food in the house. As I've mentioned before, my OH is totally on board with this and only buys cakes and pastries which he knows I don't like .

BigChoc - cherrypie-gate was finished off by OH out of view in the kitchen.

Am on a walking holiday first two weeks of June. Need to search out my walking trousers to see whether I can fit back into any of them yet.

I'm doing my next fast day tomorrow, will be porridge and a chickpea curry. I have a question tho, how do I know how much of the curry to eat? I don't tend to eat ready meals but don't know how to work out how many calories are in a home made meal. I just used spray fry and water and veg stock, so v low fat, chopped tomatoes, mushrooms and peppers.

It's tricky destiny. I don't eat ready meals either so know what you mean about it being hard to calculate the calories. I have been using specific recipe books on FDs and weighing ingredients out to get a definite calorie count. I've got Elly Pear's Feast Day Fast Day book which is good, plus I already had a couple of low calorie books which are coming in handy. You chickpea curry recipe sounds good but I guess the key will be the size of the portion which is why weighing ingredients is the best way of being certain.

FD here today and was ok until about 4pm but really struggled since. I actually feel quite ill - light headed and sleepy. I've only eaten 240 cals today so far. Just about to eat a lentil bolognase (without the pasta) so will hopefully feel more human after that.

I'm bloody glad I'm doing this in the summer, it's much easier than the winter when I just want to eat stodgy comfort food!

And thanks for the book recommendation SingingGoldfinch

Destiny, if you weigh the ingredients and work out the cals for the whole pot (use google or a calorie counting app such as on My Fitness Pal) then ladle the curry into another pan, counting how many ladles there are in the whole pot, you can work out how many cals per ladle.

Successful FD today. Finishing around 550 cals.
My most hungry times seem to be late morning and late afternoon but I've managed to get through it without too much trouble.

B- coffee
Brunch - boiled egg and slice of ham
Picnic - prawns, carrots, tomatoes, baby cucumber, baby spinach (my new crisps!)
Supper - chicken noodle soup.

I did 50 lengths of 25m pool at lunchtime too so feeling quite pleased with myself.
Weigh in tomorrow and looking forward to lunch with a friend!

Am ready for bed after a successful FD and am closing the kitchen at 470. Feeling leaner already .

Congrats on a successful FD Grifone Rocket and Goldfinch.

Goldfinch - I think you felt dizzy on your Monday FD? Do you usually do FD Monday and Wednesday - am wondering whether an additional NFD in between may help with the dizziness. Hoping the bolognese has done the trick!

Rocket - well done on your swim too. I HATE swimming. I can swim. If necessary. But nearly drowned as a teenager and the sound of water in my ears brings flashbacks of panic.

FD for me tomorrow too. I have a kettle bell class tomorrow at mid-day - the half hour beginner class I've been going to is too short but I'm a little bit concerned I'll find the hour class a bit hard. I'm just hoping that there'll be plenty of recovery breaks. Will take a protein shake for after class.

Good luck to all those on FD today. Hope your kettle ball class goes well Granny. As I've said before, I admire anyone who can do intense workout on a FD. I just seem to feel exhausted and weak on mine!

I managed to stick to about 460 calories yesterday despite the dizzy spaced out feeling. I have felt dizzy on every FD so far. The frustrating thing is I'm not desperately hungry and can easily not eat - it's the dizziness and the short-temperedness that goes with it that's the problem. I'm ok most of the day then it kicks in at about 4pm just as I'm dashing about with the kids. I wondered whether an extra nfd in-between my FDs might help but not as easy to do given family routine. Hopefully it'll get better as I get more used to it.

Well done on all the excellent FDs yesterday.

Goldfinch To feel better on FDs

1. Drink at least 1.5 liters.
   If you drink fizz, keep it to 1 glass.

2. Have you tried the Marmite tip ?
   Glug a teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon. It boosts salt, minerals, B vits.
   On FDs, with only 500 cals and drinking more water, you may be losing a lot of salt, at least until your body adapts fully to fasting. This lack can cause headaches and / or weakness and dizziness.

3. Boost protein, especially fish, eggs. Have protein with every meal.

4. Try cutting out fruit on FDs - with only 500 cals, fruit can make your day too high GI for your particular bod.
   Fruit especially on its own on an FD can spike and then crash your blood sugar, so you feel dizzy.

5. Cut out snacks on FDs - eat meals.

6. If you do all the above and still feel bad on FDs, allow yourself an extra 200 cals.
   Some folk just don't do well on 500 cals, but are fine with 700-800.
   Weight management requires sustainability, so your FDs need to be tolerable.

See if your problem is too few carbs - wth the extra cals, have some boiled or baked (not mash) potato or brown / red rice with your protein and veg

If you only feel bad on FD2 each week, then there are probably too few days in between.
However, if your problem is every FD, then you need to tweak the FD content, as suggested above

It can take a long time to adapt to fasting
I took 6 months starting at 800-900 cal FDs, before I could manage 500 cals.
Maybe because I exercise a lot, or maybe just my particular post-meno bod or previous WOL.

My FD yesterday was just under 500 cals
In the evening, I did a 90 mins advanced weightlifting class (very tough, keeping up with big strong blokes) followed by 20 mins brisk walk
Today is my training restday: breakfast is just a double espresso and I will now walk 4 km into work, then break my fast about 12 pm with a big salmon salad for lunch. I'll have supper at work and walk 4 km back.

This is such a contrast to when I started on 2013, wrt how easily I manage the FDs.
So, be patient, be gentle with yourself and allow time to adapt to fasting.

That's a lovely post! Woke up feeling really tired today for my second FD and feel like I'm dreading it already. Need to keep busy I think, to take my mind off food...

On my goodness BCF I am seriously envious of your exercise regime!! Well perhaps not envious more in awe :) I need to kick-start my exercise regime - I seem to be using 5:2 as an excuse not to do my usual classes in fear I will fall over with hunger!

Has anyone tried noodles/rice etc made from Konjac flour?? I bought one pack to try tomorrow - it's 7 cal for the pack. Dared not buy anymore incase I discover they are bad for you!