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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2017 06:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
rocket74 · 08/05/2017 09:04

I'm FD today. I'm thinking of doing two consecutive days so I get more cals!!
I've bought the Michelle Harvie book - trying to work out what I'm allowed.

pangolinfan · 08/05/2017 09:19

Hello everyone. Just wanted to report a great NSV at the weekend. For 15 months I've been doing my local parkrun, and trying to get my time back under 30 minutes, something I haven't managed since my 40s (I'm 53). Finally on Saturday, after 28 parkruns, I did it, and Im certain it had a lot to do with the fact that I'm now lugging around nearly a stone less weight, thanks to 8 weeks on this WOE. Very happy. Next goal is to get my 10k back under an hour! Good luck to everyone fasting today.

AnnieHoo · 08/05/2017 10:36

Thank you for the welcome and advice bigchoc one day at a time is so true and it's the overwhelmed feeling that has made me give up before. This is why I am loving my new 5:2 life!! I don't want to undo the good work of my FD's so I'm conscious of all calories in and out. I'm eating normally though and have been to a BBQ celebration at the weekend and drank procecco so I've been no angel.

FD today with you Rocket.

I am pinching myself today as I weighed in 7lbs lighter than last week Shock. I had to check the date on my first post to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me .. and it's true it's only been a week!!! 2 FD's!

I shall not get myself carried away though as I'm well aware it could be hormonal bloat water etc so I'm sticking in.

SingingGoldfinch · 08/05/2017 12:32

Wow AnnieHoo!! 7lbs in one week?? That is awesome! I'm on week 2 as well - I haven't weighed in since starting but not feeling like I'll have dropped that much. I'm on FD today too - managed to resist eating all day so far and have just had one green tea and one black coffee. Just about to have my salad lunch. Hang in there everyone fasting today!

GrannyGrown · 08/05/2017 14:32

Happy Monday everyone.

Very well done on your NSV Pangolinfan - my legs would love to do park-run but my brain prefers a Saturday morning lie-in!

AnnieHoo - what a great morale-boosting start!

Just a small SV for me this week - 0.2kg down. Slightly disappointed as I hoped it would be more. NSV - waist down another 2cm, so nearly within normal guidelines.

BigChoc - cherry pie already came out of the freezer, so no re-freezing. At the moment am fine to ignore. It's nice, but not nice enough to have to add another 4 miles to my run this evening. Was looking forward to a nice brew of lemon and ginger tea though, but who puts an empty packet back into the cupboard??? Bah, humbug.

MazDazzle · 08/05/2017 18:17

Well done Pangolinfan! That is a cracking NSV.

FD here. Have had nothing so far today. Had a cracking session with my PT this morning and I absolutely nailed it. Face like a beetroot and sweating buckets. You can't beat it!

I go on holiday in 8 weeks time, so I'm going to try to be more focused between now and then. Tuesdays will be my weigh day. I'm hoping that I'll be able to fit into some of my old holiday clothes lurking at the back of the wardrobe!

I have some tomoto, sweet potato and coconut soup in the fridge that I think I'll have for tea once the kids are in bed.

Destinysdaughter · 08/05/2017 19:38

Hi all! So first fast day I had porridge with water, splenda and a few pumpkin seeds, then at 5 a homemade veg soup with 2 crackers and an Apple. Does that sound ok? It's hard to know how many calories are in homemade food!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2017 20:22

Congrats on your SV, Annie That's a brilliant first week.

Sounds like you are changing your habits positively too, but still enjoying a social life
Just relax, take it day by day and the losses mount up over the weeks

Congrats too on a brilliant park run NSV, Pangolin, back to your best form of several years ago

Your time has certainly been helped by nearly a stone less to lug around the park.
Also, fasting helps insulin metabolism and the ability to burn fat for energy during exercise, so your muscles were probably a bit better able to get fuel.

Congrats on your waist NSV, Granny 2cm is more important than another lb or 2

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2017 20:28

Well done on an excellent FD exercise session, maz
All that sweat and elegant puffing Wink means you were working at your max
Your supper sounds tasty.

Well done on your 1st FD, Destiny That menu sounds ok for an FD, so long as your quantities were sensible.

I suggest you measure 400-500 ml of your prepared soup to give yourself a good big bowl.
That's the same sort of volume as in a tin of prepared soup, so it's a reasonable guide to portion size.

You can weigh the dry porridge - the label should say how many cals for say 40g porridge, which is the recommended portion
Similarly for the 2 crackers, weigh & check label
You can also weigh pumpkin seeds
An apple has on average 80 cals

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2017 20:36

Goldfinch It's easiest to have a black tea or coffee for breakfast; otherwise you have to reduce size of lunch & supper.
If you really fancy breakfast sometime, the most filling thing for the cals is a hard-boiled egg with salt and maybe a raw tomato too.
Avoid toast, cereal, fruit juice, fruit on its own - all will soon spike hunger.

Rocket On Michelle Harvie's 5:2 version (b2b FDs), you have 650 cals per FD but they should be very low carb. So no starches or fruit.

If you find 500 cals too tough, you could do 3 x NON-consecutive miniFDs (under 1000 cals) instead of 2 FD:
Mon+Wed+Fri have 800-1000 cals, no alcohol or junk those days
Eat normally on the 4 NFDs

OP posts:
rocket74 · 08/05/2017 20:50

Thanks BCF - I've found today a lot easier so far. I think I've upped the protein content and also I just think I'm getting used to it?
B - white coffee ( gradually reducing my milk)
Snack - half bag baby spinach
L - boiled egg with asparagus
D - Fit kitchen ready meal - chicken king pao with added spinach
Snacks - 3 strawberries and 1 apricot.

I'm now at 488 cals according to MFP and feeling fine and satisfied. Got a big mug of Clipper sleepy tea on the go.
Should I eat the extra 150 cals as I'm doing B2B or am I ok to stay where I'm at?
Not sure what to have though?!

Destinysdaughter · 08/05/2017 21:11

One thing I'm slightly struggling with is that I feel like in having to food/meal plan for 2 completely different ways of eating! Is early days tho so I'm sure I'll get used to it. How do other pp plan their weeks?

SingingGoldfinch · 08/05/2017 21:30

Well done on first FD Destiny! I know what you mean about planning for two different eating regimes! I'm focusing on planning my FD menus at the moment and not worrying too much about NFDs but just being a bit more careful. The appeal of this diet over any others is that on all but 2 days I can eat normally with my family.

My FD has been ok but I've found it quite tough. I've had the following:
Breakfast - black tea
Lunch - prawn and mango salad (weighed and made according to recipe book)
Snack - handful of blueberries
Dinner - homemade chickpea curry with cauli rice (again weighed and made as per recipe book).
I've also had one cup of green tea, one black coffee and one regular cup of tea. Now all done for the day on 407 calories.

Must admit I've struggled today. I've felt tired and was really dizzy when dashing to pick kids up this afternoon. I've also been really snappy! I was planning to exercise but just didn't have the energy - hats off to those of you that manage to train on FDs. I've also got my period, which probably doesn't help. Having said that, I've survived and knowing I can eat more tomorrow makes it bearable!

Grifone · 08/05/2017 21:31

Well first FD almost over. I had an egg with a piece of ham for lunch and zucchini and spicy prawns for dinner coming to 367 cals. When I add the milk in my tea and coffee I am well under 500 so not a bad day. I am feeling a bit hungry though. Last year FDs were a breeze - I am clearly out if practice 😀

AnnieHoo · 08/05/2017 21:40

Well done everyone doing FD today. I didn't eat until 3.30pm just filled up on tea. After I'd eaten boiled egg salad I felt hungry but managed to distract myself until 7pm before having poached salmon and roast veg. I am hungry!!! In bed early with a big cup of tea. It's hard but it will be so worth it!!!

GrannyGrown · 08/05/2017 22:51

Destiny - I definitely have two different meal plans for FD but no NFD meals are alike either for me. Sometimes on NFD I have breakfast, sometimes nothing until mid afternoon. I think we all gradually learn to adapt 5:2 to how we feel, and how busy we are, and how we can best fit it into our schedules.

Rocket, Singing, Grifone, MazDazzle and Annie sounds like successful FDs for you all. Having just had my evening soup, I'm still hungry too - must be something in the air! Am going to have some nice cups of sleepy-time tea but need to stay awake until midnight so I can book up a gym class - classes are released a fortnight in advance and some of them are literally fully booked within minutes!

BigChoc - guess who admitted he thought I'd eaten all the cherry pie when he couldn't see it this morning ! Told him if it hadn't all gone by tonight it was going in the bin tomorrow ..... .

MirabelleTree · 09/05/2017 07:25

Hi, hope you don't mind me sticking my head in. I was here a couple of years ago very fleetingly after a bit of a scare with my blood sugar but wasn't really in the position to fast with my gallbladder issues.

Since November last year I have lost over 50lbs and am finally having my gallbladder out end of the month. My blood sugar was 31 at last HBA1C so all normal there. I'm currently calorie counting and using my Fitbit to get a calorie deficit which works very well but I am 47 and well aware menopause is approaching and have been thinking about maintenance in the future, though I still have about 47lbs to lose.

I will discuss with my Consultant when I see him but am wondering if any of you are doing this minus your gallbladders? Many thanks.

SingingGoldfinch · 09/05/2017 13:46

Hi Mirabelle - no advice from me on gallbladder but welcome!

SV here today - I've just been to weigh myself for first time since starting 5:2 and I've lost 9lb!?! I can't quite believe it and am not entirely sure it's right but I used the same electronic scales in Boots as 2 weeks ago before I started!?! I've also lost 4% body fat which is great. I'm not sure I can feel a real difference yet though so feeling a bit confused. I'll take the victory for now though!!

EmGee · 09/05/2017 13:56

Hello everyone! I have started 5:2 today. I tried a few years ago but lasted barely a day. I'm 5'4 and weighed in at 56.6kg this morning BUT I am a terrible snacker, a choc/biscuit/cakeaholic, and have found that in recent years, while I don't put much weight on, my body shape is changing and I am much more flabby. I've tried 'being good' but it lasts a couple of days only then I resort back to snacking on sweet stuff.

So for me, wanting to do 5:2 is less weight loss and more developing healthier eating habits and losing the flab so my clothes fit me comfortably. Ideally, I would be 53kg - that's what I was pre-kids and I feel that is my 'natural' weight; give or take a kilo.

Today I have drunk some coffee with milk (32g = 15 cal!), had warm water and just had a tsp of marmite in hot water - I was beginning to feel light-headed and headachy, so this tasted DELICIOUS!! Supper tonight will be homemade chicken soup and maybe a small yogurt if there are spare calories floating about. I think it's best for me (knowing my eating habits...) to try and avoid eating until the evening.

I also need to be mindful that NFD are not a free-for-all. My aim for the moment is to eat three times a day and avoid snacking my downfall.

Bigchocfrenzy thanks for all the advice you have posted. It's so helpful to have this forum for support.

rocket74 · 09/05/2017 14:56

I haven't managed a FD today - woke up with headache and also the realisation I had planned to do my circuit class and then go swimming so felt I needed more fuel! I'll do it tomorrow - so good I didn't go to 650 cals yesterday after all.
First time swimming in ages but managed 80 lengths of a 20m pool in just under an hour. It's my favourite sport so happy to back in the pool!!
But keeping good with food so far, porridge sachet with raspberries added for breakfast, a banana before swimming and, steamed veg and bulgar wheat and some prawns for lunch so far today.
FD tomorrow!!

Iamblossom · 09/05/2017 16:39

I am on a FD.

Have had two hard boiled eggs and caved just now and had 4 crackers.

Plan is a ham salad for tea.

Was hoping to avoid having to Fast today as walked 54km on Sunday, ate sensibly the whole time, and was under TDEE yesterday. Was disappointed to weigh in this morning at the top end of my happy weight. How is that even possible?

God my legs still ache.

Iamblossom · 09/05/2017 16:43

rocket I like swimming too, I think I am going to go tomorrow, think it will loosen me up a bit.

That is good going. I manage a mile (64) in a 25 metre pool in about 35 minutes, but I expect I will be slower tomorrow Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2017 18:45

Well done on your SV, Mirabelle
50 lb is brilliant Flowers and should make you stronger for your op. Good luck.

The only difference I'm aware of is that without a gall bladder many people are advised to avoid high fat food.
Do check with your consultant if there are foods or food types they recommend avoiding.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2017 18:54

Congrats on your SV, Goldfinch and your bodyfat NSV.
That's an excellent start to 5:2

Welcome, emcee Smile
You are right that sugary junk can add fat around your middle - those snacks raise insulin and excess cals from sugar / alcohol are preferentially stored there.

Tips:

  • Have any "treats" as part of your meal, e.g. as pud. Not as a snack
  • Try 2:5ing sugary junk, i.e. have it on 2 NFDs per week only.

FDs for everyone should be totally free of alcohol and sugary crap

Everyone:
The most important tip for longterm health and management is to break the snack habit on FDs & NFDs

no snacking is important to avoid being in an insulin-dominant state on NFDs instead of the fasting-dominant state that was usual throughout our history until recently
(see attached pics from Dr Jason Fung's excellent book on IF for health)

5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start
5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2017 18:56

Your OH should have been impressed by the longevity of that cherry pie, granny

OP posts: