5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

AnnieHoo if I'm honest with myself I too have 5 stone to lose - even then I would still be in the overweight category - but trying to set interim targets of 2 stone - which is still a lot!!
My BCN and the nurses in my chemo unit were all really positive about me doing this yesterday so I'm going to be getting their boosts of support (and a weigh in!) every three weeks when I have my injections which will be good for motivation!

Everyone is doing so well, just catching up.

Rocket what a awful year you've had. This is a struggle at first and I think a lot of people ease into it. For me it's mind over matter. I clean all day on my FDs.

I had a 2lb gain weds. FD yesterday and it's back off today but no deficit for me this week and no loss.

I'm sorry to lower the tone but it needs to be asked, does anyone have issues going to the toilet on this? I'm eating lots of veg and protein and really trying to limit my carbs and sugar on NFD but I'm finding I'm not going to the toilet, only once a week.

Does anyone take anything for it or is it just me?

Granny - nonstop from 9am Saturday morning, through the night, head torch, the works.

Have buggered my leg running so resting it today and tomorrow, hopefully it will be ok by Sunday.

Was at TDEE yesterday, and will try for that today and tomorrow as well. Will probably eat a lot on Sunday during the training walk, so won't bother MFP'ing that day. Next FD planned for Tuesday.

qucking Don't find going to the loo an issue, am regular as clockwork once a day, but then I am 6:1, not 5:2. Would suggest drinking lots of water?

Well done on your SV, rocket Good start
and well done for resisting tempting delicacies on your FD, Granny

Useful mantra for FDs:
chant (silently if you are in company !) "I can have it tomorrow"

Annie, Rocket One step at a time, be patient and you'll get there.
With a lot of weight to go, set yourself lots of smaller targets along the way, e.g. 5kg or a stone
We especially celebrate when anyone goes into a lower BMI class

You can just relax and lose at your own pace
Over the weeks, these small gains accumulate into major losses

Or If you want to see if you can speed things up, then check if your NFD habits - "normal eating" - need adjusting
It helps to calculate your TDEE and then mfp just for one full week, to check your weekly calorie deficit.

If you don't want to do that, then some quick ways to get NFDs under control are:

• the most important no snacking / grazing / niiblling - just eat meals, nothing between
• keep within nhs alcohol guidelines This makes a major difference to your longterm health, independent of weight. So an important habit to acquire.

Imogen Men usually lose more easily on any WOE, including 5:2, even with their 600 cal FDs
Even when they "cheat" on diets - we often get indignant reports of an OH doing this and still losing more than the woman doing everything by the rules.

Women, with very different body composition (% muscle / bodyfat), biology and hormones, nearly always have to be much stricter than e.g. their male OH also on 5:2.
Even when they have same height, weight, activity level.

duck That's v unusual. Most folk have a bowel movement daily on 5:2, certainly after tthey've adapted to fasting.
In fact, some folk have the opposite problem in the first couple of weeks.

If you're eating and not much is coming out, of course that affects the scales.
More importantly, it's not good for you to keep food in your gut so long. So it needs addressing.

It's probably because you have suddenly increased the fibre in your diet and your gut is not used to handling that amount

• veg has a lot of fibre, which is great, but you may need to let your body adjust more slowly. If you've started eating bran or taking fibre supplement, cut that out.

Drink lots of water - on 5:2 you should aim for about 1.5 l daily, FDs and NFDs
Especially if you are having more fibre than before

Hi can I join? I've spent a lot of time reading these threads and would like to give this a proper go! I'm 52, 11stone 2pounds with a BMI of 26 and my waist is 37" (Apple shape). As I'm 5ft 5, my ideal weight is apparently 9stone 10, which sounds about right. I've never been skinny but I feel like a potato at the moment!

Welcome, Destiny
5:2 is good at helping apples, because it can help correct issues of insulin metabolism that are a common cause of obesity around your middle.

All you need to know is in the OP: How to start, links to FD recipes (if you like to cook), FAQs, science ...
Post whenever you have a question, or just need encouragement

Hello Destiny! I've just started on 5:2 too (2 FD down so far) so good to see someone else just starting out. I have the 5:2 diet book which is really useful and have just bought Elly Pear's recipe book which is great for fast day recipes.

I've done some food shopping, going to do my first fast day on Sun!

Thanks for the thread with pp's weight losses, v inspiring!

Good luck on your 1st FD, Destiny
That's excellent you are planning in advance

I find a weekend FD minimises weekend damage, so I usually fast on Saturdays - that also provides me with much-needed extra time on a hectic day of shopping, collecting all the week's parcels and gym.

Happy weekend everyone. I'll be fasting on Monday, but for now just not going off the rails. Chinese take away. But just skipped the rice. One square of chocolate. And just a tiny gallon of sauvignon blanc.

BCF - in terms of fiber I am eating more than I would as I went off the rails before restarting 5:2 and was eating a lot of processed carbs. Lots of meals with oven chips for example.

But I've been on 5:2 for 6 weeks now, you think my body would of adjusted? Especially as I'm really not that creative and we pretty much have the same meals each week.

I've decreased the eggs over the last two weeks and it's not made a difference. I don't have bran and haven't been taking supplements. I've got them from last years very low carb as I relied on them but not taken them at all.

In a day I drink 1L sparking water through the day straight out the bottle. About 6 mugs of coffee / green tea and as a treat on the evening a pint of Pepsi max.

Starting to feel a bit sluggish tbh. Would a senna tablet be a good idea? I'm at a bit of a loss aswhem I would normally eat well I would tend to go to the toilet daily?

duck If the constipation - once a week bowel motion - has been going on for more than a couple of weeks, I recommend your GP
It is definitely not a typical effect of 5:2 and may well be nothing to do with it

If that's not convenient, then I recommend you pause 5:2 and have 2 weeks of healthy maintenance: nonfasting but daily within TDEE - NOT "dieting", not trying to lose weight - and see if it really is your individual, unusual reaction to fasting

If 2 weeks without fasting doesn't resolve the problem, then definitely visit GP for advice

Also, ditch that daily pint of toilet cleaner / Pepsi max
Together with all the coffee, that's a lot of caffeine
For the next couple of weeks, try having just half a pint Pepsi on a couple of nights or week

I'm happy to speak to the GP. To get a appointment at our surgery is impossible but if I phone Monday I can get a call back from the GP.

I'm really suffering today, last night I had bean casserole for tea all the different beans under the sun and nothing today.

Last year I had it terrible on low carb, I was actually in agony crying every week on the toilet until I started taking a fiber supliment in my water. It's not that bad this time fortunately but not ideal.

I have been thinking back to when I was very regular and it would of been the time I was on slimming world. Now, I do not agree with it now with all the low fat and all that nonsense but the diet in principle with the lots of veggies and fruit meat and potatoes to a point i still do. Just a higher natural fat version.
The only difference is I no longer eat fruit only the occasional banana.

I used to eat mixed berry frozen fruit as my breakfast so I'm wondering if I try that again. How does fruit fit into 5:2 BCF? I've avoided it due to high carb/sugar content but I could perhaps turn that into my breakfast with a bit of Greek yogurt?

What do you think? I'm loving being back on 5:2 and don't want to stop
as I'm finding the WOL perfect for my lifestyle and it's saving me a absolute fortune in food and my family are benifiting from
Eating better too.

Duck So, you have a history of constipation, if you also suffered last year on low carb.
Doesn't sound a specific 5:2 problem

Your GP could be a big help on how to treat this condition and it should be checked.
Do let them know that it is a longterm problem and has happened with different diets

• btw, does it always happen when you are on a diet, or also when you are not ?
• does it happen because you move to a higher fat diet ? Not everyone can cope with this.
• or because you may reduce total amount of fiber - e.g. from grains, rice, bread etc - on diets ?

Anyway, lower carb on FDs reduces hunger, so many folk find it easier on those 2 days.
However, the only real FD rules about types of calories are no alcohol or junk food.
I also recommend against FD fruit juice or sweet cereal, because they can really spike hunger

Apart from that, 5:2 doesn't mean low carb, certainly not on NFDs - just eat as you wish, whether that be low carb & high fat / low fat & high carb / vegan / veggie / ...

So, fruit is fine, especially the berries you like - avoid adding sugar to them, though
However, I'd avoid frozen fruit if you have a sensitive stomach, just let them thaw thoroughly.
Mosely recommends no more than 2 portions of fruit per day, only one of which should be juice. Standard advice, really.

On NFDs, the only real recommendations I make, for both health and weight loss:

• stay within nhs alcohol guidelines on NFDs and
• be sensible about the amount of treat food, especially with added sugar, but also deep fried / pies / highly processed / takeaways.

Personally, my WOE is UNstrict Mediterranean:

Protein is mostly fish, eggs, a little beef.
Lots of salads (lazy !), veg, beans, porridge, some other starchy carbs, flaxmeal, chia seeds, natural yoghurt, cheese, nuts, fruit.
Occasional small glass of wine.
Also a weekly pudding trolley at a good restaurant.

Thanks so much for your help BCF.

It seems this happens when I'm on a diet rather than not.

I've not done low fat diet for a very long time and I'm not really eating much different just more veggies and more meat we eat lots of turkey, steak, chicken and occasionally some salmon I will do some potatoes usually in my air fryer with skins on with a few squirts of oil and usually mixed frozen veg. I've not had many treats in the last 7 weeks. No puddings, 1 bar of chocolate I occasionally have cereal bars.

When I wasn't doing 5:2 we weee eating lots of frozen meals, fish and chips, pie and mash toad in the hole.

Il speak to the GP hopefully tomorrow.

I did have a Google last night and seems my problem is actually quite common. I came across lots of forums with many people having the same effect.

I've found some mixed berrys I bought last year untouched in the freezer I'm sure they will be fine. I will defrost them overnight on the fridge and give that a go.

I will report back when I've spoken to my GP.

Hi everyone, can i rejoin the group. I had great success on 5:2 last year but due to a number of factors I have noticed the weight has crept back. Today I am going to reset my Fitbit, start counting my calorie intake with MFP and meal plan for tomorrow when I will start proper. Wish me luck.

Welcome back, grifone and good luck on your FD tomorrow

Destiny - hope the FD went well today.

Duck - hope your problem resolves soon, being constipated really is miserable.

Blossom - been thinking of you today - hope your trial walk went well.

Good luck for tomorrow's FD Grifone and Imogen. Monday FD for me too. Have just had to hide away two slices of cherry pie which was left over from dinner although it's still in the fridge. I have tomorrow's food planned, but if the going gets tough OH may come home tomorrow to find it in the bin. Although he'll probably just assume I ate it .....

Good luck to the Monday fasters

Granny Can you stick that pie in the freezer ?
FD mantra "I can have it tomorrow" (if I stick it in the freezer so I can't see it)

Hi everyone - FD for me today too. I'm more organised than I was last week (my first week) and and have a prawn and baby spinach salad for my lunch. Planning to hang out till then but have a handful of blueberries with me as a standby. I never usually eat breakfast but could have devoured a slice of toast and marmite this morning! Typical! Any tips for FD breakfasts gratefully received! Good luck to everyone else fasting today.