5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Important tip 2 for everyone:

On NFDs keep sweet treats within sensible limits and stay within nhs alcohol guidelines

Sugar and alcohol tend to switch the body from fat-burning to fat storage, in particular storing the excess cals as bodyfat around the waist

Never have junk or alcohol on FDs, or mini FDs (below 1000 cals) or you will lose some of the fasting benefits, both wrt fat loss and health markers.

Thanks for the welcome!
I will read about the alternative 5:2 - but two consecutive days sounds tough - but will give it a go as the higher cals are more tempting
For feedback my FD today consisted of :
B - white coffee
L - purition shake using almond milk with added raspberries and spinach
D - Covent Garden carrot and butternut squash soup
Snacks - green tea, 4 grapes, 2 sweet potato fries.

Maybe a bit low on protein although the shake promises a lot I think.
I also did a gentle circuit class for exercise.

Thanks for the welcome. My first FD has been ok. I'll definitely take on board comments about needing to up protein intake though. My caponata had pulses in but not many! I was planning on fasting tomorrow too (just because of the way my week has worked out) but going to bed with a grumbly tummy so think I might postpone!

And hello Rocket - nice to find someone else just starting out with this too. Sounds like you've had a tough time so hats off to you for taking this on!

Well done on your first FD, Rocket, goldfinch

What helps reduce hunger on FDs:

• water - start the day with a glass and keep drinking

• NO snacks !
  Snacking keeps insulin raised and increases hunger
  Also, nibbles are much less satisfying than the same amount of food in fewer meals.

• Don't drink your calories - that doesn't satisfy hunger. Eat them instead.
  Have hot drinks black, or with unsweetened almond milk (25 ml is under 5 cals)

• Boost lean protein - it's filling and low cal. Fish - especially prawns - eggs, chicken breast are great.
  Per meal, aim for at least 20g protein (that's about 3 eggs)
  Boost non-starchy veg too.

• Some older hands save all cals for supper. For newbies, 2 meals are easier, typical:
  B: black coffee / tea / herbal tea with stevia
  L: huge salad with lemon or balsamic vinegar dressing, plus protein - fish / eggs / chicken breast / cottage cheese / lentils, beans ....
  D: stirfry with lots of veg and a protein, e.g. prawn / tofu / egg
  or veg omelette
  or stew - containing a protein, try adding lentils too. Accompany with cauli rice or one spoon of brown / red rice or small portion of sweet potato (not mash).
  The "How to Start" has FD recipe links

• Avoid high GI or snack food:
  fruit juice (most veg juice is ok), dried fruit, grapes, breakfast cereals (porridge is ok), crisps, fried chips

• If you really need a taste of something between meals, then don't have fruit or crisps etc - on their own they are too high GI
  Allow 10 cals for a hot beef Bovril, or a teasp Marmite. Or black coffee, tea, herbal tea
  Or have raw carrots or celery , no dip and chew them thoroughly, drinking plenty of water.

Hi all, doing my first FD for a few weeks.

so far:

one hard boiled egg, 1 bread stick, two crispbread

Planning prawn stirfry with tinned tomatoes for tea which is my "Go To" FD tea.

Have done a 30 min XTrain, 20 min Power Walk on treadmill and a 10 min core workout.

anyone else fasting today?

Hi blossom - not sure whether there are Wednesday fasters - my days are Monday and Thursday which seem quite common on here.

Well done on the exercise and enjoy your well earned tea later on.

I'm fasting today Blossom. I've just started and my FD are generally going to be Mondays and Wednesday. I fasted yesterday too just because of the way the work has worked out - won't generally be doing consecutive days but actually not feeling too bad. I think I may go a little over the 500 cals today though.

Good luck, Wednesday fasters
Post if you need encouragement or have a question
Post whenever you have an SV or NSV

Goldfinch - don't know how you manage B2B fast days! Hugely impressed. Hope everything's still going according to plan blossom.

Another NSV today - had to tighten my running belt a little bit more!

Goldfinch On b2b, you can have 650 cals
(even without following Michelle Harvie's Mediterranean b2b, several 5:2ers have done well on 650 b2b)

Well done on another waist NSV, Granny

Everyone
I recommend a definite maintenance plan after you get to waist and weight goal
e.g. 6:1 or 16:8 and weekly / daily weighing.

if you return to your old WOE, then you return to your old weight & waist

Happy Thursday everyone.

FD for me. Gym class in an hour. Not really looking forward to either to be honest but hopefully keeping a tape measure close at hand will keep me focussed.

Could really do with the weather brightening up and the temperature increasing just a few degrees - am still cold most of the time and back to wearing a fleece.

Morning all.

Yesterday did go a tad awry....DS1 made cheese and bacon scones at school and insisted I try one (would have felt really mean if I hadn't) but it was small and I reckon 60cals.

All my fault were the two large gin and slims I had in the evening when we were discussing all the (very valid) reasons we can't buy the dream house I viewed yesterday morning.

So I closed the kitchen at about 700 - not a total disaster, but cross with myself for drinking on a FD. But reassured that I can still do it on a food front having not fasted for a while.

I will be doing a full good FD every week for the next 4 is the plan as am holiday for a week at the end of May, and bikinis are on the cards. I am not looking to lose loads, I am 8 stone 11 on the scales this morning, and I exercise a lot, but my happy weight is 8-9/8-10 and 6:1 helps me maintain there or thereabouts.

Will fast again on Tuesday I think - would usually do a Monday but will need comforting next Monday as doing a 50km training walk on sunday.

Hello all - good luck with your FD granny and I agree about the weather! Don't lose heart lamblossom - sounds like you did pretty well all things considered.

I did my second FD yesterday and it was ok. I followed advice and upped my protein intake and it definitely helped with hunger pangs/light-headedness. It was surprisingly ok doing 2 consecutive FDs but I won't be doing that every week!

Today I am struggling to allow myself to eat 'normally' - does anyone else find that? I don't seem to be able to switch off from calorie counting and just eat as I usually would. I guess that's not a bad thing but I might struggle if I end up obsessing about every calorie I put in my mouth! Maybe it's just because I did b2b so it's been a full two days of it?

Blossom agree, don't be too hard on yourself. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and 700 calories is not too bad - at least the G&Ts didn't lead to snacking.

50km training walk? . You definitely need some good fuelling before, during and after that. What is it you're training for?

Goldfinch I've never done B2B FDs, but yes, I do sometimes struggle to eat normally following a FD. I also MFP all my calories at the moment and find that seeing I still need to add calories on a NFD helps me to eat properly. Surprising how many calories in a peanut butter sandwich!

Feeling tired and my legs ache after my gym session so have used up some of my calories on a small protein shake which has helped.

Thanks Granny . Yes avoided the snacks in the evening. Don't buy salted peanuts anymore for that exact reason.

we are training for this, first weekend in July to support this charity

100km non-stop walk from Bath to Cheltenham. Terrified.

Wow lamblossom - that's an amazing challenge to take on!!! Good for you!!

I'm using MFP to log calories too Granny. Although on FDs it flashes up a warning saying calorie intake is too low. It's a shame you can't set it specially for the 5:2 diet unless I'm missing something?

I've eaten a little more than the past two days and will definitely eat a bigger evening meal but it's really making me think about what I eat and where my calorie intake comes from which is probably no bad thing!!

I'm not surprised your legs are aching Granny. I'm not very good at exercising at the best of times let alone on a FD. I'm struggling to find the time to schedule it in at the moment but do walk about 4km a day so not completely sedentary. I'm going to try and start some HIT on FDs though.

amazing = mental

Goldfinch Some folk find after a b2b that surprisingly they aren't super-hungry the following NFD.

Everyone
On NFDs, eat meals if you are hungry. Don't deliberately "diet" on NFDs - they are "maintenance" days.
However, if you aren't hungry, stop eating - it's fine; your body is probably burning more bodyfat for fuel, so make the most of that.
Another day, you might feel hungrier and eat over TDEE - it evens out over a week or two

Your 50km walk sounds fearsome, Blossom Good for you
Nail the next FD - no alcohol - and you can feel confident you are back properly in the fasting swing.
Plan your FD meals in advance, so you don't get caught out - also avoid eating off plan on FDs.

FD for me again.
Had a massage late morning which took my mind off it for a while.
I've upped the protein so had a boiled egg for late lunch with cherry tomatoes then some prawns later. Had soup for dinner.
I managed to sit through a two hour support meeting with a table full of cake in front of me, and eat my soup whilst DH had a Kentucky bucket!! So my willpower has been strong today! I think I am all or nothing - if I give in, it would be game over.
Had a SV today - 1.7 kg less than 3 weeks ago. not sure what that is in lbs.

2nd FD here, I'm doing Monday's and Thursday's. Found it a bit of a struggle this morning as I woke up really hungry but it soon went away with tea.

Boiled eggs are my friends!

Had a stir fry for dinner and early to bed again. Closing the kitchen at 650 cals. Feel so much better doing this already. Love the feeling of stomach rumbling,..

Trying not to get overwhelmed by the amount of weight I need to lose (5 stone), pound by pound, day by day.... excited to be here and doing this more than anything!

Goldfinch - I avoid MFP telling me off for not eating sufficient calories on FD by ignoring the 'Complete This Entry' button.

Blossom that walk looks amazing. Are you going to take two days over it or walk morning and night until you're finished? I hope you have decent weather booked.

Relieved to report a successful FD. I can't deny it was a breeze today, especially when I had to sit in a canteen next to people eating toasted sandwiches and crisps. Fortunately I'd taken in my usual prawn salad which I ate very slowly. Would have liked coffee, but made do with topping up my bottle of water and drinking that instead as I couldn't face the counter full of 'snacks'.

Have just finished my soup, so kitchen closed at 520 calories (actually slightly less as I picked out all the red pepper which I loathe). The washing up can wait until tomorrow. Zzzzzz.