5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm not at home currently so unless I buy something (I won't) there's no food until I get in. I just really am feeling the struggle of it more today than usual, maybe I'm coming down with sometime as I generally find FDs fine or feel able to power through. I'm planning a protein centred dinner anyway, probably chicken with something salad-y or some dry roasted veggies so I'll be somewhere in the 800-1000 calorie range depending on how much chicken I have and what's in the fridge veg wise.

Lack of sleep always makes fasting more difficult, borrowed Your plan sounds fine.
Chicken & plenty of salad / veg should help. Glug a teasp Marmite while it's cooking, to boost your minerals & B vits

Granny I train fasted on Fridays and Sundays, FD or NFD, when I have morning classes.
However, my other training sessions are evening, so on FDs, like you, I split my calories into lunch and supper afterwards. I found it gives me that extra gear in training.

Granny Many people find their sleep is disrupted until they adapt to fasting.

What helps sleep

• No big caffeine hits - coffee, coke - after 3 pm
• Stop exercise at least 3 hrs before bed
• Stop screens - phone, tablet, TV, gaming etc - at least 1 hr before bed
• On FDs, save some of your cals for supper. If you just have supper, 500 cals chosen sensibly makes a decent meal and that helps you feel sleepy

Cold on FDs ?

It's quite common on FDs, because the reduced amount of food produces less body heat.

If you notice cold fingers & toes, this is because fasting increases the blood flow to bodyfat - ref adipose tissue blood flow in J Clinical Sci - which helps move it to your muscles where it can be burned as fuel.

Due to this, micro-vasodilation may occur in your fingers & toes to compensate.
Hence they may feel cold.

What to do about it

• Get active for a few minutes - just walk around the office / upstairs / do a chore. If you can, do one of Mosely's 5 minute Fat Blasts, or run up and down the stairs.
• Put some more clothes on !
• Have hot Bovril, tea, soup

Ended up closing the kitchen on just over 900 calories. I feel like I could eat everything in the kitchen but I know I don't need to and I intend to head to bed with a book soon.

Well done borrowed You didn't give up; you hung on and managed a mini.

I recommend you drink some water and then clean your teeth - it really reduces temptation.
Then you need an early night, to catch up on sleep

Thanks for the information BigChoc. I'm not generally a person who feels the cold but I've noticed straight after a FD I'm cold in the night. Bought PJs yesterday and slept a little better last night but still woke up several times. Bizarrely every time I was awake I couldn't get Elton John's Rocket Man out of my mind which was very annoying!

Borrowed - well done on a successful mini FD - and well under the 1000 too! Sometimes I look at difficult FD the same way I view a difficult run - it's learning to conquer the the tough times that makes you stronger.

NSV for me yesterday as I had to tighten my running belt slightly . Weigh-in is going to be Monday morning to keep me on focussed on no snacking over the weekend.

What are Monday FD'ers doing about Bank Holiday Monday? We always have family round for dinner on Sunday (so Sunday FD out) and are out to lunch on Monday. I may do mini FD Tuesday and proper FD Thursday.

Well done on your waist NSV, Granny Sounds like you've lost bodyfat there already
5:2 won't help your ear worm though

I suggest treating Bank Holiday social occasions like any other: move the FD
In your case to Tuesday - or as you say have a mini then, to avoid having only one NFD before the next.

I'm just about to embark on the 5:2. I'm 54 and horrified at the way the weight has crept on over the past three years. I don't look good and I'm losing my confidence. I also can't keep affording to update my wardrobe with bigger sizes! I have many boxes in the loft ready for when I do lose the weight.

Question: on a fasting day can I have skimmed milk in tea and coffee throughout the fasting period. I thought it had to be no calories at all throughout these hours? I.e. Just black tea and coffee.

Happy Bank Holiday Monday everyone. Not sure whether I'm doing a FD today or not - apparently lunch out is for 'after lunch' dessert pancakes (!) but at quite an expensive place so I have warned them I may just have coffee as I can take or leave the pancakes and I'm not wasting calories on a sweet dessert when I've done so well at avoiding sugary stuff all week. We'll see.

Weigh in this morning and I am 1.4kg down and 2cm has gone from my waist. I now fit nicely into the higher waisted jeans I could hardly breathe in a week ago. I still have another 2.5cm to lose to get to the 50% but am really happy with the losses, even if most of it is water!

Have a good day everyone.

Well done on your SV, Granny

Welcome, HelenMary
Several of us maintaining successfully are going through meno / post-meno.
Many find that intermittent fasting is the only technique that works at this challenging life stage.

The OP has all you need to know about 5:2 and has a "How to Start" section, plus FAQs

Briefly, the FDs "(fast days)" are not total fasts, just 500 cals (600 for men)
Within those 500 cals, all that is really "banned" are alcohol and junk, especially sweet junk.
So you have at least 2 days per week that are junk-free, to give your body a rest.
Just remember to include any milk cals within your 500

You can distribute the 500 cals through the day as you wish, but most people find nibbling makes them hungrier.
So, many here have black coffee or tea for breakfast and then either save nearly all 500 cals for a more substantial supper, or divide them into lunch and supper.

Tips:

• Before the FD, measure out what you decide is your FD allowance for milk (and sugar if you have it) into 2 pots.
  Work out the calories, so you know what you have remaining from the 500.

• Unsweetened almond milk has under 10 cals for 50 ml, especially tasty in coffee and much lower cal than cows' milk

• Drink lots of water. Start each FD and NFD with a glass and keep drinking during the day.

And also well done on the jeans NSV, Granny Always good to breathe comfortably while walking
Some of the waist loss will be bodyfat; the rest will be released water now that you have cut the junkier carbs.

Hello everyone! Happy bank holiday!
I've been reading all the threads for a while now and so excited to be here today on my first fast day of the 5:2.

Woke up with sheer determination to do this after a long time of not looking after myself I'm going for it and giving myself a year to reach my goal of 9 stone 7 pounds.

Current stats are:

Weight 14 stone 5 lbs
Bust: 46 inches
Waist: 41 inches
Hips: 48 inches
Height: 5' 4"
BMI: 34.5

Monday's and Thursdays are my fast days.
Looking forward to seeing results!!

Welcome Helen and Annie - did you both have your first FD today - and how did it go?

Lady - some of the cold viruses going around have been really persistent - my DIL is only just recovering from hers after a full three weeks and she doesn't usually get colds. Hope you're back up to 100% very soon.

Pleased to report I turned the bank holiday into a FD. I can't exactly say what the calories were as I ate lunch out, but have hopefully erred on the generous side and MFP'd at 612 calories. Did 50 mins yoga this morning (although 20 mins of that was 'relaxation' (too much for my liking) and this afternoon a 5k run. Just finished my soup and to be honest feeling slightly peckish but kitchen is closed and I have no intention of turning my FD into a mini-FD by snacking.

Hello Granny and thanks for the welcome!

I found it easy in the morning Ib black tea only. I had lunch at 12.30 but was still hungry afterwards. I only had lettuce, some roast chicken pieces and two cherry tomatoes. Managed to distract myself with a lovely walk on the beach before having a small rump steak and salad.

Then at 8.30 I CAVED and reached for a little packet of hula hoops!!

When to bed early, having another cup of tea.

Finished at 630 calories. Will not creep downstairs!!!

A walk on the beach sounds wonderful Annie - I had a walk in the wind and rain which had fortunately died down a bit by the time I went out for my run.

630 sounds like a successful FD to me. I'm impressed you've managed to stop at one packet of hula hoops - I have zero will power so one packet would lead to another and another and another until they were all gone. In an effort to take control of my bad eating habits, all snacks are banished from the house for now until I can be trusted to be alone with them .

Granny - yes the NHS podcast is what I used last year too. I plan on doing the same this year and am starting again on Thursday.

It was brilliant and I went from struggling to finish the first one, I didn't I gave up and cried to a continuous 45mins. I tried a 5k and hated every step so this year I'm not doing a event I'm doing it for me only. I had a issue with my breathing on the day and ended up running round with my mouth open like a dog panting. It was not a pleasant sight. Ha

Hope everyone had a good weekend, we had company and I would normally have a few to drink (I drink rarely) but I only had 2 small wines and forfitted the hang over the next day.

I'm 3lbs away from getting my stone under my belt so super focused this week.

Good luck to all the fasters today

Qucking I thought having run before that I would breeze through C25K so it was a shock to find run-walk quite hard going. I'm doing a 10k this year partly because I need a target and partly because my DD got a freebie pace in her local 10k so I will be joining her on the start line and she will be waiting for me at the finish.

Anyway, in my quest for a healthier diet I decided to use my blender to make a green smoothie for breakfast this morning. Eclectic mix of 50g of this and that - whatever was in the fridge. I think it's fair to say it wouldn't go down well on master chef, but at 3 portions of veg and 1 of fruit I'll keep going with it on NFDs. Maybe tweak the recipe though.

Happy Tuesday everyone!

Hello - reading this thread with interest and just checking in as have started the 5:2 diet for the first time today. I'm keen to lose some tummy fat and just slim down a bit (currently 11stone and 5"10 and would like to lose between half a stone and a stone depending how things go).

Today is my first FD and it's been ok so far. I had a small banana for breakfast and a salad (leaves, a tomato and half an avocado) for lunch and planning a homemade capponata for tea. I think it's manageable but I am feeling a bit lightheaded this afternoon and am wondering whether anyone has any advice for avoiding this?

Any tips, advice and moral support gratefully received!!

Hi, posting today as think I'm going to need some support at some point!
I started 5:2 last week. Managed about 630 on my first day and 500 on the second.
Today should be about 550 if I count the two sweet potato fries I absent mindedly ate of my DDs leftovers!
I'm currently 17st 13lb (gulp) and 5'8 and 43. I'm doing it to be a healthy weight - I've had a shocking past year with breast cancer diagnosis and all the treatments that entailed. I'm out the other side now, one boob down but doing ok. Not going to be too hard on myself (finding 500 a bit of a challenge!) but hoping to see some positive weight loss this year.
I'll read the full thread to get some tips!!

Welcome Goldfinch and Rocket - BigChoc is our resident expert and should be along soon to give you some good FD advice.

Goldfinch - I'm another one here keen to lose tummy fat - mine has ballooned over the past few months out of all proportion to the few kgs I have put on.

I think the advice for lightheadedness is a mug of hot water with either a teaspoonful of marmite, a bovril cube or tablespoon of soy sauce. Never tried it myself, but have definitely read about it somewhere on the thread.

Had to google capponata as I've never come across it! My only comment is that none of the foods you have had today - or your meal tonight contain much protein. For me, I always err heavy on the protein on FD, and light on the carbs, particularly sugary ones like bananas. The protein definitely helps to calm the hunger pangs. Having said that, we are all different and manage our FDs in different ways. Also, at 11 stones and 5'10 your BMI is nicely in the 'normal' range too so don't be surprised to find the weight loss slow.

Rocket - what an awful, awful 2016 you've had. FDs are hard - some harder than others. The biggest change I have made since I restarted 5:2 a week ago is sticking to a "no snacking between meals" rule. Snacks are my biggest downfall and ignoring the cravings is difficult at times, but I can't be trusted with them. Fortunately my children are grown, so I'm not tempted by leftovers!

As for tips - post on the forum. Post and let us all know what works; post when the day's tough. There's usually someone around for support.

Lovely to see so many newbies
The OP has all you need to know: a "How to Start" section, FAQs, tips, recipe links and links to scientific papers on fasting.

Welcome, Annie, Goldfinch, Rocket
Do tell us how your 1sr FDs went

Goldfinch I agree with Granny that you probably need to boost protein on FDs:
fish, eggs, chicken breast are excellent choices.
If you are veggy, add natural Greek toghurt or cottage cheese
If vegan, then boost beans, lentils, peas.

Make sure you drink plenty of water

Also, glug a teasp of Marmite on its own (10 cals) to replenish salt, minerals, B vits
When you start fasting (or start low carb), your body often flushes a lot of these away until it adapts, which can cause weakness and headaches

Most important tip: No snacking EVER, on FDs or NFDs !
This tip really helps fat-burning. Even "healthy" snacks raise insulin and hinder fat-burning
Just eat meals

Aim to leave at least 4 hrs between meals or consumption of any calories (e.g. booze, lattes etc)
If you want a "treat" on an NFD, then have it as part of a meal, e.g. crisps with your sandwich, or choc as your pud.

Rocket You are so strong to come back so determined, after that horrible year

I suggest you consider Dr Michelle Harvie's version of 5:2

Her research and human studies were funded by various breast cancer charities and her peer-reviewed research found that her subjects reduced risk markers and weight more with her 5:2 than with conventional (daily calorie reduction) diets.

The "Scientific Evidence for Fasting" section near the end of the OP links to her papers.

Harvie's 5:2__

• FDs: b2b (back 2 back, i.e. 2 consecutive days each week) 650 cals each FD (instead of 500)
  Very low carb on FDs - so no starchy carbs or fruit those 2 days.

• NFDs: healthy Mediteranean - fish & chicken rather than red meat, have masses of veg, 1-2 portions fruit daily, moderate portions of whole grains. Boost beans, lentils, peas. Add natural yoghurt.

If possible cut out junk / highly processed food, e.g. crisps, deep fried food, pizza, cake, biscuits, sweets, pastries, pies, ice cream etc

Keep alcohol within NHS guidelines always