5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome back, emison and well done on maintaining despite your problems.
Glad to hear you are fit again.

nell, nora Most folk feel very hungry the first few FDs
However, if you feel bad the following NFD, you may need to tweak your system - be gentler on your body, at least until you are fully adapted to fasting

The NFD supper before the FD:

• Do NOT have a blowout meal. Have a medium or large supper, but be sensible
• No junky takeaway or deep pan pizza. No sugary crap, sweets, cake etc
• Boost protein & veg. Include carbs. Avoid very spicy food.
• No alcohol that evening, or at most a small glass with supper, not on its own.
• No late night nibbles.

On the FD:

• Cut out any added sugar if you have it.
  Also cut out FD fruit - some people find this helps

• Boost protein & non-starchy veg
  BUT if you are having low carb FDs and you are not used to low carb, you may need to add e.g. a small portion of plain boiled potato (NOt mash) or rice

• Allow yourself 650 cals while you adapt to fasting - the extra carb or protein. NOT added treats.

• Try splitting your cals into 2 meals - some newbies find that a 500+ supper is too much for their system.

• Drink plenty or water

• Increase salt intake, e.g. teasp of Marmite for those who don't have to avoid yeast. Or just more salt on your meals

• If you are exercising on FDs, stop that for say 3 weeks - make FDs your training restdays and just have a short walk instead.

On the NFD after:

• Have breakfast, medium portion NOT huge or it can be too much for your body.
  Protein plus carbs e.g.
  Porridge, nuts & berries / scrambled eggs on wholegrain toast with tomato / pnut butter (no added sugar or palm oil) on wg
  . Do NOT have fruit juice (veg juice is ok) or sugary breakfast cereal. Too junky to break your fast after an FD

• Don't exercise before breakfast after an FD, until you are fully adapted to fasting

• Lunch: boost protein & veg, include carbs, but no junk. Avoid sweet treats or alcohol - have those with supper if you wish

It's lovely to be back!

Poor Lady, I hope that horrid cold goes soon. Combined with totm probably makes it all feel worse. Avoid scales until after they are both over - Colds can also cause fluid retention, in addition to the usual water retention from totm, so you'll have a lot of temporary water weight.

Keep drinking water - sounds contrary, but your body still needs plenty, especially with a cold.
Nourishing hot soups help you feel better, but avoid alcohol - it can make you worse, later, because your liver shouldn't have the extra work when ill.

Also, get a chamomile preparation from the chemist and inhale the hot steam - my German GP recommends this and research has indicated it is helpful for colds & flu.

You did really well to fast yesterday.
Just avoid the totm munchies, have a restrained Easter and you should lose that blip during the FD following the end of totm.

Good morning all
Hope you're feeling better, Lady. I 2nd the inhalation for colds -I put a menthol crystal into the water or just hot water is good.
BigChoc thanks again, for sharing your knowledge. I'll look at my diet over the NFDs and FDs. I've ordered a multivitamin and mineral supplements. I wondered if it was was cause I'm a bit constipated. Like I've said before I'm giving myself 4 weeks trying 5:2 then I'll review it and decide whether to carry on or not. I've 1 more week to do. I have as you know thought about doing the 5:2 BSD, so I'll have a good think about it all this coming week after Easter

Yep, me too. Also feel a bit grim the day after a fast day and I had to work hard to control the beast - it just wants to be fed! Finding it tricky to keep to TDEE today. Chocolate is tooooooo tempting.

How are you tackling Easter?

Hi all it seems a bit quiet on here. Makemine I'm thinking I won't do 2 fast days next week as my usual FDs are Monday and Wednesday - or maybe I'll do tues and thur - I'll have a think about it. What's everyone doing about chocolate and lots of tempting Easter foods? I will try sticking to dark chocolate rather that the milk stuff - I'm sure dark is better for you anyway

As I posted upthread, I suggest just one portion per day, but only on those days when you are joining in the treats with family, i.e. no secret munching

No point in swapping to a form of choc that you don't like as much, or you'll feel cheated of your proper treat
So, if you prefer milk choc, then have that, but be sensible about portion size and frequency.

Regain from a few days choc can usually be hauled back by a week of 5:2 - some of the gain would be water retention and undigested food, which goes after an FD.

important for any break, whether Easter, Xmas, or summer vacation:

• Decide in advance the day you will be resuming 5:2 and the date of the next FD
• Enjoy the break, don't feel deprived
• Resume 5:2 on the planned date, no wiggling.

With an indefinite date, or procrastination, you keep putting it off and then suddenly you've been away several weeks or months and back to square one.

Whereas if you resume as planned, even 2-3 weeks indulgent vacation shouldn't take more than 3 weeks 5:2 to be back on track again.

low carbers / BSD
For anyone seriously low carbing, or doing the BSD, the situation is different:

Ordinary Easter eggs - except maybe ONE mini ONCE - will take you right out of stable blood sugar and ketosis
Some folk can manage a short break and resume lc ; others can't.
If you stop lc, don't be shocked by a large water weight blip - if you resume, you'll lose it within a couple of weeks.

btw, even the "low carb" Easter eggs and choc have sugar alcohols which have been shown to count as carbs, reduced carb but only ok in small amounts.
Some low carbers have got seriously off track with "low carb" treats

Checking in three weeks into 5:2 and 5 fast days down (skipped one last week due to Easter). I have lost 3lb so far which I'm happy with. Not finding it too difficult - I have chosen Monday and Thursday as my usual fast days and Monday is always easy as I am motivated after the weekend. Thursday requires a bit more willpower! Hoping to carry on for another couple of months to drop about a stone overall and get back to pre-pregnancy weight, then will see how I go from there.

Well done on your SV, superking

After all the Easter choc, I'm enjoying a lazy Easter Monday FD

I've had a weekend off and I feel absolutely terrible my belly feels so dodgy and bad, and I feel constantly sick... now I'm unsure whether maybe I have a bug or it's my body telling me it's no longer up for junk?

Sorry to hear that, FirstTime
Drink plenty of water and plan so you get your full 8 hrs sleep each night and take it easy during the day.

You may have either a bug or food poisoning
However, a few 5:2ers who have drastically cut sugary junk or alcohol have indeed found that their tolerance has seriously decreased and that they can no longer binge without feeling sick.

Booze and sugary / carby junk food places stress on your system, particularly your liver, pancreas and gut.
It is very individual - and partly genetic - how much your liver and pancreas can tolerate without damage
You may not notice the effect of crap if you build up tolerance over the years - the boiling frog analogy.

Even a break of a few weeks lets your body get used to better nutrition and you may not realise that you are feeling better on it.
Some folk just take longer to get used to crap again.
Or it could be that your liver and pancreas are not in great shape and need several months rest.

Whatever the cause, atm you need to be gentle to your insides and get back to fitness.

Do not fast for a full week after symptoms, especially D&V, are all gone
Whether due to bugs, food poisoning, or over-stressed system, your body and in particular your gut flora need that week to recover, and rebuild or the symptoms might return.

The interim week should be healthy maintenance:

• Eat within TDEE daily
• NO alcohol
• No junk food. Also no fruit juice (it's an irritant) or very spicy food
• Plenty of water, eat sensible portions of reasonably nutritious food to support your recovery.

Thank you for the advice BCF that really helps. I'll take it easy this week, I have no idea what this is but it's not too nice. Kind of put me off junk food for a bit at least!
I'll just keep drinking water and eating healthily but I'm not really feeling eating at the moment anyways. Thanks again

Relax and you'll soon be fighting fit again, FirstTime

I just finished my Easter Monday FD, 490 cals
I feel the benefit after an indulgent Easter; it let my bod have the downtime it needed and I'm having an early night too

Night, everyone

Hi there - I'm back after about 6 weeks (can it be that long?!) off the thread.....

Have been plugging away, managing 2 FDs a week since I started (Monday 6th Feb) except for last week as we went on holiday. So, last week, I didn't do any FDs at all but I am back to it today (FD number 1 for the week) and doing ok.....albeit I'm a bit hungry now!

I was almost at my first target of 10stone before we went on holiday - think I got to (10s2lbs....?) but am sure I'm back over that again now. Am going to have x2 FDs this week (second one on Thurs probably) and then weigh-in on Friday morning and see where I'm at.

Started at 10s11lbs (ish) so it's a slow loss but hitting 10s, which I hope to do in the next couple of weeks, will be magnificent! Next aim is 9s7lbs in time for a holiday in late July and I really think it is do-able!

Back on the thread, reading the advice (thanks esp to BigChoc) and hoping I can get back to the FDs without too much trauma after a week off. I have to say, and I NEVER thought I would say such a thing, I'm half looking forward to the FDs this week! Perhaps it's just the feeling of challenge and then accomplishment they yield

Hi there - I'm back after about 6 weeks (can it be that long?!) off the thread.....

Have been plugging away, managing 2 FDs a week since I started (Monday 6th Feb) except for last week as we went on holiday. So, last week, I didn't do any FDs at all but I am back to it today (FD number 1 for the week) and doing ok.....albeit I'm a bit hungry now!

I was almost at my first target of 10stone before we went on holiday - think I got to (10s2lbs....?) but am sure I'm back over that again now. Am going to have x2 FDs this week (second one on Thurs probably) and then weigh-in on Friday morning and see where I'm at.

Started at 10s11lbs (ish) so it's a slow loss but hitting 10s, which I hope to do in the next couple of weeks, will be magnificent! Next aim is 9s7lbs in time for a holiday in late July and I really think it is do-able!

Back on the thread, reading the advice (thanks esp to BigChoc) and hoping I can get back to the FDs without too much trauma after a week off. I have to say, and I NEVER thought I would say such a thing, I'm half looking forward to the FDs this week! Perhaps it's just the feeling of challenge and then accomplishment they yield

Um, sorry for double post! Got a bit trigger happy apparently and on it went! TWICE!!!!

Was almost finished anyway - just saying good luck to the FD peeps today and I'll touch base again soon

Sounds like good progress, sequins

Back on FD today after Easter weekend. I too had stomach trouble after eating too big a meal on Saturday night, which meant I took Sunday very easily and didn't eat very much at all. (I have stomach issues when overeating / eating late anyway so should have expected it.) Despite this, I reckon it was a decent weekend, little to no snacking and didn't buy any sweet treats so I saved it up for a couple of main meals and enjoyed them. Put jeans on this morning and there is room in them for the first time!

Enjoying today - like BigChoc said, it's refreshing to give my body a break and time to re-calibrate after the weekend. Will be very interested to see what the scales say on Friday morning.

Hello all, first post Easter break FD for me today. I wasn't particularly indulgent anyway, I'm more of a savoury snack person than a chocolate eater but I did hate a bit more cake wise than I usually do and I drank a bit more than usual (probably still within or only slightly over daily recommended limits but every day when usually it's maybe once a week if that!) I definitely feel I need to be back to routine and fasting. I'm not sure I'll see a loss this week considering my weekend and last week was TOTM so the scales didn't budge but I'm hoping next week to see a loss.

Good luck to the Wednesday fasters

Well done on your jeans NSV, Merri That's lost bodyfat making them roomy.