5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Good luck wth the NFDs, bestbees It 's great strategy to work on them

Lady Mosely himself does FD breakfast & dinner. Works brilliantly for him, so I recommend you try that if it suits your schedule better.

If you want to try b2b (back2back FDs) then take 650 cals

• we recommend this because it worked so well in Dr Michelle Harvie's human trials of her version of 5:2 (her research was funded by breast cancer charities)

Her study used a no-junk Mediteranean diet for the 5 NFDs and low carb b2b 650 FDs.

Duck Weight can naturally fluctuate a few lb over the week, due to food digesting, hormonal swings, retained water after excess carbs etc.
So although it is fine to weigh daily if that helps you focus, you will go nuts trying to understand daily changes.

The average weekly loss on 5:2 is 1lb (those with a few stone to lose can lose3-4 lb weekly for quite a while) so a 1lb loss can easily be hidden by retained water

What you should see is a downward weight trend over periods of say 3 weeks.
If not, then your real TDEE is lower than the calculated value, or you have hidden calories.

If you have yoyoed over the last few years, this can be a cause.
Or hormonal changes e.g. having a baby, starting premeno etc
Especially starting / changing some prrescribed meds like ADs or steroids, or hormonal contraception.

If you have sts for 3 weeks or more, I recommend recalculating your TDEE, using one activity level lower than you think (Mosely's advice) then for one full week at least, actually weighing everything and using mfp.
What can be hidden cals: oil used in cooking or on salads, mayo, creamy sauces, small nibbkes during the day. Also hot milky drinks add up over the day.

If your sts is not that long, then just be patient and you should progrss.

keepon If you have only 2 x miniFDs (800-1000 cals), that's absolutely ok, but your loss will be slower than 2 FDs.

Important: MiniFDs or FDs should be free of junk, especially sugar (cake, biscuits, choc etc), crisps, alcohol - because those all tend to switch the body from fat-burning to fat storage.

Sedentary TDEE on NFDs sounds correct for your lifestyle.
However, too many "treats" & too often can slow / stop fat loss.
I recommend the 80-90% rule for NFDs, i.e. only 10-20% of calories as treats. It's probably more satisfying to 2:5 treats, i.e. just have them on 2 NFDs, but then bigger portions.

My first FD yesterday went surprisingly well. I didn't get hungry until lunchtime so am happy to skip breakfast. (I have never been a breakfast person but have forced myself all these years because you were 'supposed to'). I had soup for lunch and then drank lots of water and chewed gum. I was the usual amount of hungry for dinner and had omelette and salad which filled me up. I made a big bowl of salad at 32cals and only got through half of it because I was full. Then I didn't get hungry at all the rest of the night, in fact I usually have much stronger food cravings at bedtime than I did last night. I appreciate it probably won't be so easy every time!

NFD today and I'm going to go the 1600 calories because I like to have a 'treat meal' on a Friday evening and want to save some for that. It's really good to be thinking about what my system wants rather than eating to mealtimes / I fancy it. I have done too much 'eating just because' and that's the relationship with food I want to change.

I do have a scratchy throat and might have a cold coming, but if I feel fine and energetic I assume I can carry on for now?

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, , merri

I hope your scratchy throat is ok tomorrow.
You should not fast if you have a fever, or an upset stomach.
Otherwise, fasting is ok, so long as you feel capable.

If you cancel an FD because of illness, my motto is
if you're too ill to fast, you're too ill for junk & booze

In that case, plenty of water and concentrate on good nutritious food, no crap.
To support your immune system while ill

Hi I've been looking at the BSD forum including Michael Moselys forum and I'm thinking of doing the BSD 5:2 Wol. I'm currently on the 5:2 - I'm not long into it. I'm ok on it but I'm struggling with the restrictiveness of 500 cals

Although I'm not diabetic Ido seem to have high glucose levels at times and I get a bit hyper with too much sugar. I'm trying to decide what to do - I like the principles behind the Mediterranean diet and like this type of food. My mum had Alzheimer's so I'm keen to do what I can to stay healthy and avoid Alzheimer's

Has anyone done the BSD 5:2 and how did you find it?

Nell 5:2 BSD sounds a good fit for you and is a very healthy WOE.
Mosely developed it, based on the brilliant research by Prof Taylor of Newcastle Uni (funded by Diabetes Uk) originally to help those with T2 or PreT2.

This is Taylor's Banting lecture on his prize-winning Twin Cycle Hypothesis of T2

The BSD and 5:2 BSf are well suited to those who are not yet that far along the T2 path, to help correct their insulin metabolism

Mosely specifically says that for those with blood sugar issues, 500 cals and only 1-2 emal may be too tough. The 800 cals allows 3 small meals.
The daily low carb element food is also suited to those like you, with maybe unstable insulin levels on a standard diet.

Where his low carb Mediteranean really differs from standard low carb, e.g. Atkins, is that the BSD encourages beans, lentils & peas - which have long been proven to help stabilise blood sugar.
Also, plain yoghurt and kefir, which is thought to help gut bacteria.

Evening fasters, just popped on to say goodnight and well done to you all!! I'm weighing in tomorrow......

Thanks BigChoc that's really helpful and makes me think even more that it's a good match for me. I also have problems with gut bacteria and yeast and I believe kefir helps this in fact the Mediterranean type food is the food I like best. I'm going to give it a go

63.7 down from 65.3 on the 2nd

Morning all and good luck to the Thursday fasters
Well done on your SV, Persis

Thanks BigChoc, my throat feels almost better this morning so hopefully clearing up without incident.

Second fast day today! Am moving it to Mon / Weds next week. Hungrier this morning so will be an interesting wait for lunch. Will do my first weigh in tomorrow morning but with no expectations as it's only been a few days, though I do feel like I have been shedding retained water.

Hey, just checking in as Thursday is my weigh in day. Last week was 1lb off this week 0.4lbs.

I've taken BCFs advice from the other day and taken a good long look at MFP calculated my food and recalculated TDEE as I was working off last years figures of (1800cals a day) new TDEE is 1600 a day. This week in my head I've been brilliant salads, veg, no snacking but in reality I am right up at TDEE and twice over.

I am fasting today and starting a fresh with proper calories being calculated.

I've just found the barcode function on MFP (been using it 4 years and didn't know it was there) so no excuses from now on.

No more guessing from now on promise.

I do have a random question about MFP. I have a Apple Watch but it's been on the side for a few weeks but MFP seems to have worked out calories burned from school pick ups and seems accurate is my phone (iPhone) tracking my steps without me knowing?

Mfp is a often a reality check, duck as we humans are so good at kidding ourselves.

Gadgets for counting steps and cals burned etc are useful to measure whether you are increasing exercise, but may not be reliable in the actual number of calories.
Some quick studies have suggested that even on the best gadgets, like fitbit, the software misinterpets some movements, so final total can be up to 15% off.
Your phone is likely to be much more inaccurate than fitbit

Basically, enjoy gadgets for fun and motivation, but certainly don't start eating back exercise calories - use TDEE on NFDs to handle this

1600 cal NFDs is a good target that should enable you to lose, if you are patient and realistic
With your TDEE, the weekly calorie deficit would be roughly 2500, which would probably give an average weekly loss of 0.75 lb.
It adds up over the weeks

First weigh in and 4lbs down! I know it's only water weight at this short notice but still glad to be rid of it. Just have to focus on sticking to my TDEE (or less) over the weekend now as this is where it gets challenging. I think my weakness is more the days I'm NOT fasting and previous diets have always crashed and burned due to weekends. Having a few more calories to play with and doing 16:8 should help with bad habits, plus I'm feeling less hungry and very determined!

Hope everyone is well tasters and non fasters.

I woke up feeling pretty rubbish and headachey so decided to postspone my fast in favour of TDEE - 20% of healthy foods to try stay in a deficit calorie wise for the week but stop my headache from developing into a full blown migraine.

Well done on your SV, Merri That's an encouraging start for you

I hope your headache goes soon, borrowed
Good decision to switch to a healthy sub-TDEE NFD instead
Personally, I always have an FD on Saturday or Sunday, as it avoids weekend damage.
However, I'm post-meno, so I have to be much more careful than in my youth.

Some folk have a weekend miniFD instead
Or just have a sensible weekend at around TDEE and resume 5:2 properly next week.

Keepon At least 4 days per week should be NFDs in this WOE.
The whole idea of 5:2 is that you eat "normally" most of the time, even if some folk find they need to retrain themselves so that their "normal" ="maintenance"

Weight loss is a process over several weeks or months, so sustainability is key.

Hi everyone it's a NFD for me today and I’m feeling a bit nauseous and headachey – could it be anything to do with fasting and withdrawal. I felt similar on Wednesday, one of my FDs but I got myself through the day ok. Apart from this I feel great. My weight has come down 2-3 in 😀😀
BigChoc I'm looking at doing a sort of BSD with a 5:2 slant on it -keeping mainly to a Mediterranean diet - I'll probably keep to 500 cals or do a combination of 500 and 800 cals - I'm still thinking about it though

Predictive text!! My weight has come down 2-3 lb this week

Well done on your SV, Nell

If you do 5:2 BSD, I recommend you always do the recommended 800 cal FDs for that:

the reason is that low carb is in itself a restriction and a physical stressor.
Also, Mosely says that those like you - who may find 500 cals difficult because of their blood sugar instability - might have more stable insulin levels on 800 cals and hence feel better.
You said you are finding 500 cals difficult already, so listen to your body.

It's best not to try to be tough and lose too quickly, because you may crash out after a couple of weeks.

Hey everyone hope everyone's having a great Friday.

I have weighed, measured and MFP everything and I'm under TDEE today. (May make up for my misguided "good days" at the beginning of the week.

I was just wondering with BCF and all the others who are at there targets: do you still 5:2 or do you only fast one day a week.
How do you stop yourself from constantly loosing once you hit your target?

duck At maintenance, we basically eat back the FD deficit over the NFDs - exactly what you don't do in the weight loss phase !

I tend to spread mine out fairly evenly over the 5 NFDs; it's just what suits me.
talkinpeace saves her deficit for Saturday and a bit for Sunday
breadandwine is a bloke, so probably has more wiggle room. iirc, he does 6:1
Some other maintainers also do 6:1" or go to 800 cal FDs, so slightly less deficit to eat back

I should say that tip and I are aged 50+, in my case a post-meno 60
Young women can usually maintain on 6:1