5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on a good 1st FD, hangry and you're on your way to that 1st goal.
With the meno, I didn't need to see my GP, or request HRT, as my symptoms were luckily quite minor.

Well done on your FD too, duck
Absolutely no problem with fat-free natural yoghurt, if you like it I think it tastes of eye crust
Try adding cinammon and flaked almonds or other plain nuts, if you have them, to your fruit & yoghurt.
Porridge, not instant, is also a good choice, to alternate with yoghurt.

What we advise against are the flavoured diet yoghurts that are pushed by some commercial diets - the sweetness often spikes hunger and sometimes has sugar or odd stuff sneaked in.

Hope everyone has a good day today whether a FD or NFD. We've been the house of no sleep and multiple sicked on sheet changes, just in time for the Easter break so that's brilliant. I don't think I will be doing 16:8 today as with no sleep I feel I need some fuel now as well as the multiple coffees I already had we are out of wholemeal bread and I can't face cooking or porridge so it will have to be a slice of white toast and some peanut butter. I guess it will be a Sunday treat

Morning everyone!! I lost loads on 5:2 and have been maintaining for almost exactly a year. After a bit of a health scare I am going to try to get my weight down to 60 kg to give a BMI of 20.5. It's been a while since I did "proper" 5:2, so I think it might be tough, but I've reinstalled trusty old MFP and dusted off the scales.

Today will be my first calorie counted NFD for a year (eeek) so wish me luck!!

Welcome back Persis and good luck.
Training yourself to eat within TDEE is an excellent first step towards longterm weight management
No snacking helps a lot

That sounds hell, borrowed
Pnut butter is nourishing (if you avoid the brands with added sugar & palm oil)

Thanks BCF - ah got you like the muller lights they push on you at slimming world.

I'm not a massive fan but needs must, good idea about the porridge I will pop a small scoop of oats into it. I'm a bit strange as I like to
Eat raw porridge oats with youghurt and a banana. If I make it hot I eat far too much so it's much safer for me.

I've had 2 great fast days, the plan is now to be really good until my next. I've got steak and salmon for the next two days. When I have the salmon I will have 2 boiled eggs instead of carbs.

BCF how long have you been 5:2?

Duck I'm one of the longterm 5:2 maintainers. I started late 2013 and have been maintaining since spring 2014.

There are also a fewmaintainers like talkinpeace, breadandwine who pop in occasionally who have been 5:2ing since the original Horizon program in August 2012.
They originally started these threads and tip found the "no snacking" rule

Nice to see you again BCF and looking forward to catching up with the current batch.

I'm a bit worried as I found it very easy to maintain at 65 kg (my original target weight) - through work, holidays, etc. And I'm a bit worried that maintaining at 60 will be trickier! But I'm v confident that I will get there fairly easily so I guess all I can do is give it a shot!!

I'm doing 16:8 every day, 2x 500 cal FD per week but basically unrestricted eating on the other days and this has kept me bang on target. I'm also now trying for low GI. I have reverted to snacks though and I think this will be the way to trim off the calories from the NFDs! More water, less nibbling!

65.3 kg today.

Having gotten even rounder she slopes back onto the thread with head bowed low.

I must do my 5:2 diet. I know it is good for me and provides successes but I am really struggling lately to get started. I do really well until about 5 o clock then press the Sod it button and devour a loaf of bread and a few cocktails. Can't get into the right mindset and desperately need to.

So have returned to ensure my commitment.

BigChocFrenzy we don't get the fancy "health food" peanut butter (tried it as I like it but the oldest wouldn't touch it, they are a pretty extreme selective eater pb is pretty much the most calorie dense thing on their accepted foods list so I didn't want to push it!) but I do get the no added sugar smooth sunpat which also doesn't contain palm oil. I really enjoyed it, my issue was more feeling rubbish about having it on white bread than having peanut butter which is one of my favourite things ever.

FD for me today but not feeling 100% (not properly ill, just tired) going to see how it goes and may turn it into a mini fast day and have three of those instead of two fast days this week. I'm not sure but the beauty of this WOE is the flexibility right?

Good luck fasters and non fasters alike.

Just checking in as I come to the end of my third fast day. Going well so far, I have eaten well on my NFDs too although I couldn't deny myself Friday night steak and chips.

I have discovered Quark recently which is proving a godsend on fast days. 140 cals for a big pot and I actually really like it (the flavoured ones taste just like fromage frais), plus it is ridiculously filling.

Well done to all other Monday fasters.

Monday fasters, 455 cals here and off to bed. Tomorrow will be a challenge as it's work lunch outing. Bad timing!

keepon are you measuring your waist etc too? Some weeks I would lose inches (well, millimetres!) and weight would stay stable. BCF will tell you what to do, but it all gets easier and the not thinking about food is my favourite part of 5:2 I think!

Well, if it were me I would do FD of 500 cal and NFD of TDEE as per the link on the first page. But only because that worked for me!

I know it's hard on the FD but you honestly get used to it. It's quite addictive too - after a gluttonous weekend I quite enjoy the hunger! Spoonfuls of marmite, Diet Coke and options hot choc take the edge off for me but I found it really liberating to embrace my hunger! I tried all these "you'll never feel hungry" diets and I didn't....but I didn't lose any weight either! I also really like being starving for my meals - by tomorrow lunchtime I will be ravenous, and the food really does taste better.

Keep going. We are rooting for you!

That's right, borrowed This WOE is very flexible, so you can switch around FDs and / or miniFDs as you wish.
I hope you feel fit again tomorrow
An early night is always good on FDs and you sound like you'd benefit from a few nights with good long sleep.

Well done, Persis
Most folk lose on 5:2 without needing to count on NFDs - much easier if you can do so.

However, in our obesogenic societ, with food & lattes pushed continually at us, some folk have got used to eating far more than their body can burn.
So they need to use mfp on NFDs long enough to retrain their habits, until they learn to naturally eat approx what their body needs.

Round Do you plan your FD meals in advance and do the shopping for them ?
Also, how do you split your meals ?
Some folk do better just having tea & water all day, to save 500 cals for a decent supper
Others need to split the 500 into say a salad lunch and a stirfry supper.

If 500 cals is a problem whatever system you use, you could alternatively try 3 miniFDs instead of 2 FDs, i.e.
800-1000 cals on Mon+Wed+Fri
It usually gives similar loss.
As with standard 5:2, you need to be sensible on NFDs

I agree, Quark is quite satisfying, Superking as a change from Greek yoghurt
I always get the unflavoured and either eat it like that, or add berries.

Keepon If you have not lost for 4 weeks, that usually means you are not creating a weekly calorie deficit.
OK, let's think why:

1. Your 3 miniFDs:
   . Are you always below the 1000 cals, 3 x weekly ?
   . On miniFDs or FDs, Mosley warns NEVER eat back exercise calories
   . Do you use mfp to calculate intake accurately, or do you just guess portion size ? Best to weigh.
   . Do you consume any alcohol or junk on miniFDs ? - they should be free from these, like FDs

2. Your 4 NFDs:
   Are you using fitbit to eat back exercise calories ? That can be very inaccurate.

Recommended:
. Calculate your TDEE via Mosely'sTDEE Calculator using one activity level lower than you think, as he recommends.
. This is your target for total intake on the NFDs
. Do NOT eat back any exercise calories calculated by fitbit, or you will be eating back twice.

3. Treats
   . Do you mfp alcohol, sweets, cake, biscuits etc on NFDs ?
   As well as being calorie bombs, even if you are not far over TDEE, a junky diet can hinder fat loss.
   Sugar and / or alcohol switch the body from fat burning to fat storage. This is ok somlomg as you don't have them too often or in too large amounts

4. Drinks
   . Try to drink 1.5 - 2 litres (unflavoured) still water per day
   If you don't get enough, it can block fat-burning, or you may mistake thirst for hunger.

Can I join please? I've never done 5:2 before but all the excellent info on this thread has convinced me to give it a go! I'm on my first FD today, trying to do it in tandem with 16:8 as well, so I haven't eaten since 8 last night and intend to go to midday today. I've always felt like I forced myself to eat breakfast anyway so it feels good to let myself off, in a way.

I have one question for BigChoc - in calculating my TDEE I can't reduce it a level as I am on the bottom one already (desk job), so do I reduce it myself? I have a TDEE of 1955 so was going to reduce NFD to 1600, will this be OK? Thanks!

I actually ended yesterday just under 600 cals so a normal FD instead of a mini one. I did go to bed early but of course I couldn't sleep because that's how I roll! I'd even had no screen time and no late caffeine but it didn't help that there was another round of puked on bed sheets from the little one at 2am. I'm glad today is a NFD because I need to eat! Scales showed another 1lb loss this morning so feeling pretty good and I tried on my shorts to get an idea of if they'll fit when I go on holiday next month and I can get them on and zipped up so a NSV as well!

Welcome, Merricats
Many folk lose well without counting on NFDs.
However, if you think you may overeat, then I suggest you aim for around 1900 cals and review orogress after 2 weeks.

Well done on your SV, borrowed and shorts NSV - that's lost bodyfat.

Hi everyone – hope you’re doing well: fasting, not fasting, or thinking about it
Yesterday was my 3rd fasting day since I started last week. The few lbs I put on after visiting relatives over the weekend and over indulging in wine and food including great fish n chips from the seaside and a fantastic curry (that didn’t give me heartburn, unusually for me) those lbs seem to have gone after my fast of yesterday 🤙😀. I found yesterday’s fast easier than the first two of last week – it does get better as you fast more, as people have said.

I’m now working on developing my routine of FDs and NFDs and what to eat and drink.
I’m planning on trying to exercise a bit more but I’m hampered by having dislocated my shoulder over two weeks ago and too much of anything and it aches all round my neck back and shoulders like mad. The most I’m doing is a walk with my oh when he walks the dog – but I can’t hold our black Labrador on the lead yet myself. The good news is that I’ve been discharged from the hospital so it’s on the mend and as long as I’m careful it will be fine.

Sounds like you're adapting well to fasting, nell
Do take care of your shoulder

Hi all.

Still plodding on here but know i need to work on nfd so i dont eat back all the good work!

I am taking a group of teenagers to india for 12 days from saturday so i wilk be off the fasting. My plan when i return is to really focus to be on target of 9'7 by my open water swim on the 16th july.

Goodluck fasters!

Can anyone help me out with this, I think the answer is go back to MFP property and work it out.

Last Thursday weighed: 10 stone 9.
Thursday fast: -2lbs
Friday - NFD
Saturday - FD - 2lbs now 10st5
Sunday - NFD had a small bag of sweets the rest of the day no problems.
Monday morning + 3lbs

Saturday my DH said he wanted to loose weight and start running again, no problem il make him what I'm eating and have removed all bad food bigger push from me and I'm excited for my weight to now drop.
Monday: 3 tables spoons nat yoghurt a banana and small 25g scoop of porridge oats.
Salad - lettuce, spring onion 2 sclices of ham, 2 boiled eggs handfuls of sweet corn 3 tbspoons of caulslaw.
Tea - turkey breast 1/2 big bag of stir fry 1/2 bag egg noodles (bag says 400cal per 1/2 bag)

Tues- stay the same.
No breakfast as was out and and about.
Lunch salad as above.
Tea - tortillas 3 wraps from a kit. Chicken loads of peppers and onions. Seasoning mix added with tbspoon of salsa and little squirt of mayo.
1 pint of thatchers gold (very rare that I drink)
This morning +0.8lbs on.

If I take away the pint I really can't see what I've done wrong to be gaining. I've added in lots more veg and it seems to be doing the opposite of when I was on this in end of November.

Back in November I was 7lbs away from my target with of 9stone I'm 5ft3 so bmi lower than 25. I did this diet along with 5:2 and managed to loose 6of those 7lbs in 2 weeks.

I will rework out my TDEE as I haven't since restarting and add this all into MFP and will post again with my results.

Sorry for the long massive rant everyone