5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thank you BigChoc
I will recalculate my tdee and see what i get.
My first FD is tomorrow and i don't go to the gym on Fridays.
Fingers crossed
X

I had a good NFD today after a good FD yesterday. Fridays are often where I slip up and over do it, I'm not planning on that happening tomorrow. I've planned my food already and will stick to my TDEE!

Good luck on your 1st FD tomorrow, Hangry

Well done, borrowed
You sound very positive, ready for another good NFD tomorrow, for a good start to the weekend.

No such thing as a failed FD here, kitkat
An FD is merely postponed, not failed
You made predominantly healthy choices and you exercised; so it was a good NFD.

Now, plan your FD menu, then tomorrow you focus - and you'll nail it !
Also, remember to allow yourself say 10 cals for Marmite, to avoid headaches. Check the list of substitutes I posted upthread if you are a Marmite hater [gasps] not a lover.

Emotional Eater ?
This article in Psychology Today - by a shrink - looks helpful:

"Emotional eating is a huge barrier to weight loss by adding many unnecessary calories to the diet and creating a psychological and physiological reliance on food for emotional coping.

Here are five strategies to conquering emotional eating once and for all "

< now read them and work on them >

I've already had a disastrous week. I don't understand why I get so hungry all the time. I never used to.

Next week is another week. I shall attempt again

BCF, you talk such sense. For a couple of weeks I felt absolutely amazing on ADF, but you are right, I've stopped feeling amazing on it.

Emotional eating, you say? Being kind to myself? Well, I never.

Thank you for all the support.

I definitely struggle with emotional eating, that was a good read thank you. I'm still feeling positive this morning spurred on by a 1lb loss taking me below the weight I've been stuck on and going 2lbs over and back to it again for weeks.

Got a NFD today, breakfast and lunch are planned, I've not decided on dinner yet but I'm keeping the other meals light so have about 800-1000 calories to play with and will still be under TDEE. I only have myself to feed this evening so could have something no one else in the house likes but I've no idea what I even want

After a bit of a disappointment yesterday with my lb loss. I had a really great fast day yesterday and cleaned all day. It kept me busy and my mind off food. My house now looks spotless, feel better for it and I hope my jeans are getting closer to fitting.

Thanks for the support yesterday. It was still a pound off. And it's going in the right direction and has made me more determined.

Good luck to everyone who are fasting today. Lady - you will do great.

Welcome, back, Lady and well done on your SV
That's a really important NSV too: nailing NFDs means you are able to maintain healthily, while losing on FDs when you need to. That is key for longterm weight management.

Well done on your SV, borrowed
If you're alone this evening, this is your opportunity to be creative / eccentric in the kitchen.

Well done too on your SV, keepon especially as you have just been easing your way into 5:2

You are losing at the pace that is right for your individual body & food preferences etc, duck
It's a WOE, not a race
Just stay focused and even if your loss is relaxed & gradual, your progress mounts up over the weeks

irritation Are you comparing yourself to the self of a few years ago ?
What changes to your life in that time ?
e.g. having a baby / more sedentary job / longer commute / less time to sleep / less time for exercise / more wine / different food choices / changed prescription meds / hormonal contraceptive / enteriing premeno or meno / ....

Even if your habits have remained the same, you have got a bit older.

A common mistake is to retain teenage eating habits long past teen years.
After about age 25 (unless you boost exercise) most people experience a gradual reduction in TDEE, i.e. the calories their body needs to burn.

Many unconsciously also gradually get used to eating a bit mroe, because there is so much food & drink thrust in our faces.
If you were a bit overweight before, that tends to accumulate and maybe accelerate over time.

Suggestions:

• Are you eating sufficient protein and non-starchy veg (i.e. other than potatoes & parsnips) They are filling. Especially unbreaded fish, or eggs.

+Try to lower the GI of your diet:
Base meals around protein and non-starchy veg. Boost beans, lentils, peas.
Optionally add a sensible portion (up to 100g cooked weight) of starchy carbs
Enjoy cheese, butter, mayo - but in sensible amounts.

• Are you eating too much treat / junky food ?
  Sugary treats - e.g. cake, biscuits, sweets etc and carby fatty treats - e.g. pizza, chips, crisps - only fill you for a little while
  Then your blood sugar crashes and you feel hungrier than ever. A cravings spiral.
  Maybe just have them a couple of times per week - a "treat" by definition isn't your usual food.

• Too much fruit ?
  Mosely recommends no more than 2 portions per day

• Liquid calories are not satisfying in comparison to food.
  So, check if you are within nhs alcohol limits and if you are overdoing the lattes.

• Other choices:
  Fruit juice and dried fruit are packed with sugar which soon makes you hungry again. Avoid.
  So are most breakfast cereals - porridge is a much better choice. Or eggs / bacon / toast & pnut butter.
  Flavoured diet yoghurts can also spike hunger. Better to have a sensible amount of full fat Greek yoghurt with say berries & cinammon.

Thanks so much, that's really helpful Big Choc Frenzy. I appreciate you taking the time BUT i'm totally clued up food wise. I would say 85% of the time, I eat protein only, low GI, non beige, no sugar, no diary, no wheat. Yep. I am very careful with food. Have been for about 17 years. I exercise regularly. I rarely drink.

What's happened is menopause and having a baby. Weigth all gone to thighs and ass. And a constant hunger that I've never had before, 9llb heavier, and noticeably, so self-esteem has dropped and therefore my relationship with food becomes more emotional.

I can go 4/5 days being totally clean food wise but it's really hard, and then wham, I have a bad day and I can't get back as quick. And because I'm not seeing any results, there's no motivation.

I do genuinely blame menopause. It's a game changer for me

Ah, meno and a baby. Double whammy.
Before meno, my weight management was easy
Post-meno, only 5:2 worked for me and I also had to change my exercise.

Suggestions - try for 2 weeks and see how you progress:

1. Food update -

Note: high fat / low carb often doesn't work well post-meno

You refer to 4-5 days "clean" eating and then a "bad" day
Your "clean" seems to be very strict paleo low GI
Is your "bad day" a binge with on reasonably healthy but high fat or high carb food / wheat, or a binge on junk like cake or pizza ?

Whatever, a very strict diet is pointless if you binge on 20% of the days.

• For sustainability and low GI, I recommend 5:2 with a Mediteranean diet: . Plenty of fish, eggs & veg, plus beans, lentils, peas (Mosely & many others recommend for insulin control), sensible portions of healthy starchy carbs like oats, brown rice, flaxmeal, chia seeds. . Plain Greek yoghurt. Sensible amounts of nuts, cheese, olive oil. . Optionally alcohol, but within nhs limits.

2. Exercise Update

• For most women, best to swap any prolonged steady state cardio (running, swimming) for an upgrade to strength and HIIT.

• 2-3 days per week about 1hr:
  Bodyweight exercises like pressups, tricep press, deep squats, lunges, wall squats, plank, abs workout
  and / or lift heavy weights, working the large muscle groups

• HIIT 2-3 days per week
  e.g. spin class, Shred, martial arts, include a couple of Tabatas per week

• 20 mins daily walk.

General info may be useful for others too (you already do pt 2 below)....

MENOPAUSE, Weight Gain & Control

Estrogen is a hormone that counteracts insulin and cortisol.
Progesterone counterracts cortisol only.

Younger women have high levels of these 2 hormones; hence weight control is easier.
At menopause, when both hormones drop drastically, a woman typically:

1. has slower metabolism due to much lower estrogen.

Real TDEE drops and averages 200-400 below calculated value.
So, lower your calorie intake to new TDEE - tweak until you find it.

2. is more sensitive to simple carbs, even fruit, due to increased insulin resistance.

Fat is likely to be added around abdomen, where it increases health risks.

. So, replace white carbs by complex ones.
. Also reduce even these carb portions,
e.g. bread to 2 wholegrain slices / 1 roll daily, pasta or rice to a fist-sized portion daily.
. Reduce fruit to max 2 portions daily
. Drastically reduce junk food, especially cake, biscuits, pizza, crisps, chips, even home-cooked.

3. is more likely to have thyroid imbalance - low estrogen can slow thyroid function.

Anyone with a previously sluggish thyroid (women are more prone to this) will likely find pre-menopause worsens this considerably.

Consult your GP if you suspect thyroid issues.

4. Loss of muscle mass, which lowers metabolism and raises health risks.

Occurs from age 25 for all non-exercisers and accelerates around menopause.

To retain / build muscle requires weight-bearing exercise, like squats, pressups, lifting.
Cardio is NOT sufficient and may even increase muscle loss.

5. is more vulnerable to stress.

Anyone chronically stressed will have raised cortisol levels, tending to increased fat storage.

As well as final career surge, caring for elderly parents, toddlers, teenagers, uni students ...
make time to relax and to get enough sleep. Non-negotiable.

That's really helpful, thanks

I can't think what I eat when I'm unhealthy - I don't go and buy junk food usually - those has been known but I just eat MORE of everything.

I already do about 3 x circuit/boxercise classes a week, which is all about weights and Tabatha and strength as well as cardio - I walk the dog - but maybe I still need to do more

It's time - young son, working and also writing second novel (first was published) - all at a time when energy levels are v low

But I'm going to do this and try hard and report back! Thanks x

Morning all
I'm fasting today. Anyone else ?

Anyone with no time to exercise, I recommend adding Mosely's Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes on 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

Yup, fasting here too BCF, combined with working in the garden and a cycle ride later. Had a careful week of low GI, zero snacking NFDs am hopeful can start to get back on track. Thanks for advice, as ever, BCF. Am going to try regular 5:2 again but if not going well will consider the 3 mini FDs option. Did see your phrase 'grim determination', which I will need when I eventually get back to the plateau I got stuck at for so long as it was approx the weight I'd been for ages.

Sorry not been reading everyone's news and posting, ridiculously busy at the moment. Have a good weekend everyone, and keep drinking that water!

Good luck to all fasting today!

I'm very pleased as have lost 2.5 lbs this week - I've not counted calories on NFDs, have just made an effort not to go too mad.

I'm fasting today. Not eaten anything yet, trying to hold out until 3pm.

I'm having a very productive day cleaning my entire house. Keeps me busy and my mind away from food.

Does anyone else find the day after a fast you are starving but as soon as you eat you become very full very quick?

I definitely feel full more quickly on days after fasting.

A NFD again for me but I also did 16:8 and didn't eat until 12:30 then had my dinner just now and closed the kitchen 250 cals under my sedentary TDEE (I go with that as days with my children and walking them to school are very active but when I'm at work I spend most of the day sitting at a desk) and I don't feel at all deprived as I made a delicious curry feast for dinner but saved calories and money over choosing a takeaway. I'll probably do 16:8 again tomorrow as I find it easy to not bother with breakfast on days that don't immediately follow a fast day.

Well done on your SV, kneesup and on your sensible habits NSV

Nearly there, clear, duck

Sounds good progress, borrowed

All done and dusted for today!

I've had a fantastically productive day and cleaned my house from top to bottom. (Two months ago my depression was so bad I could barley do the dishes daily)

I got DH to go to the local shop to get me something for the morning so I don't cave and have toast or sugary cereal.

They had no Greek yogurt all they had was fat free natural. I know that it's frowned on but as a sub for Greek for a few days would it be ok with a banana (he bought a kg tub so may take a few days to finish) ??

Well i had my first FD and it was easier than i thought it would be. It was yesterday then today feel like I've messed up by not counting etc. However I'm looking forward with some gained knowledge on FD although don't expect the next to be as easy.
You're all doing well, keeping at it and encouraging each other.
Thank you BCF for the info on the menopause as i believe i am peri, but the doctor would not talk to me about this last year.
12lbs to my first goal, after plugging away at SW with no noticeable results for 15 months, I'm feeling determined to wave it goodbye over the next year.