5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Bestbees That sounds a very exciting event
So long as the pressups are full ones < stern look > a weekly 2 x 10 mins concentrated upper body should suffice.
You may weel find the cross training gives your swimming some extra power.

If you have weights, I suggest 1-2 sets of 8-10 reps lifting as heavy as you can:
bentover row, benchpress, standing shoulder press, straight leg deadlift (only lower weight to your knees) .
Plus bodyweight - tricep pressups, triceps on a step.
So, you are concentrating on the larger upper body muscle groups, rather than on biceps, side deltoids etc.

Well done on your 1st FD, kitkat and on a good NFD, borrowed

I managed to complete my FD successfully!

Need a few more FD under my belt before I can confidently hop on the scales.

Usually after a break from fasting, my weight is never as bad as I imagine. Here's hoping.

Made some quick fritters today for my kids: grated sweet potato and carrot, sweet corn, some flour. Mixed it together and beat in an egg. Easy! Could definitely tweak with some seasoning for a more adult version.

I'm always interested in what other fasters are eating. Love reading your recipes for inspiration!

Well done, Maz Stay focused on NFDs too and no need to fear the scales.

Thanks BigChoc. I dont have any weights so in the mean time will focus on body weight. I cannot do a full push up....yet! I couldnt swim last night due to husband working late so did a yoga abs and arms with lots of planks and types of pushups. Better than nothing!

Second fd today. Think i will feel pretty hungry as i ate less yesterday if that makes sense but feeling positive!

FD here today and it is a huge relief not to have to think of food.

Seems that my issue with NFDs continue unabated. I can have a few good days, only to then binge.

I ate nearly twice the amount of kcals yesterday because, after I posted here, I managed to fall out with DH and then ate all the chocolate I could find in the house (which is not much, I have not bought any since starting IF). I'm premenstrual too and my appetite is enormous when I do eat.

The positive thing is, I think I got to the bottom of why I have been overeating and putting on weight. Basically, my job search is not going brilliantly. I do have a very part time job, but most of the time I am working for free, building up my CV in the hope that I will be ready when the right position comes up. So I spend most of my time at home with the kids and I am not brilliant at it. The childcare aspect is fine, but doing nearly all the housework/cooking is really bringing me down. Because DH has to shoulder all of the financial responsibility, he is at work a lot, leaving me even more alone with the domestic burden. This sexist arrangement is not working for us, but I cannot take any job that is going because a. the money would barely cover nursery fees for the toddler, b. I need time to work towards the dream career. I feel quite stuck, which is why I eat. Sorry for the pity party, I know I am lucky in many ways, and actually feel ungrateful sometimes for expressing my dissatisfaction with a comfortable lifestyle. So yeah, I am dissatisfied and guilty about feeling dissatisfied. Understanding these emotions is a good start, right?

Anyway, FD today, which should be easy enough, as I still feel full from yesterday's binge. Salmon fillet with broccoli and a salad for supper. Best of luck to all the fasters.

FD here and it's all going well but I'm having my dinner now (massive but meticulously weighed and recorded on MFP stir fry) because having walked nearly 7 miles today on nothing but a small banana which I ate because I didn't think my legs would carry me to school for the second two mile round trip I was getting hangry and snapped at my nagging child I can eat tomorrow though and I'm very excited at the prospect

Arse! Totally just fucked up. Had a boiled egg. Then stuffed in an apple and a cheese sandwich 😣

I will try to eat nothing else. Bugger.

Like you orgasmic i think it is emotional. My kids were so upset when i left them at
Nursery as i am going away for 12 days during easter. I came home early to see them and just felt overwhelmed. I am sure that taking noteof emotions is good. I feel stuffed now and not in a good way.

I think that understanding your emotions behind overeating is more than just a good start, One.

Best - at least you were able to pull yourself up and didn't do too much damage!

NFD for me today, but have tried to be restrained and ran 10k this morning.

Hi all,

I'm menopausal (just started HRT), and fairly obsessed with the changes in my body over the past year. I was pretty lithe like and now I'm not...I'm about 10lbs heavier than I want to be. And I'm finding it so hard to keep off.

I've decided to try the 5:2. I do 1-3 HITT/boxercise classes a week plus walk the dog and run around after a little boy.

I need support, I think. I've never needed it before - used to be so disciplined about food - but psychologically things have changed, and definitely physically.

Plus I seem to be permanently hungry even though I'm a slave to nutrition, know exactly what I should eat - protein / what carbs/ low gi fruits etc etc.

Anyway. Hi. Hope I can lose it here. It's really making me unhappy. My self-esteem is in the toilet.

Thanks all

xx

Hello all.
Ive decided to do the 5:2 and found this forum which seemed really supportive after reading through it.
I have a couple of questions
I have read the advice is for low carb on fast days, how low should this be, numbers/grams wise?
What is the best app for tracking please?
I have been doing slimming world for the last 15 months and don't seem to have got anywhere, especially with my fat% which hasn't moved. I'm hoping that there will be benefits to the fasting diet on top of some fat loss.
Thanks x

Welcome, Hangryfastjo! 👋🏻

Yes, you're right this is a supportive thread.

By low carb, I interpret it as no crappy carbs and try to fill up on protein & veg.

The only app I've tried for logging cals is Fitbit and MFP. I prefer MFP.

Successful NFD here! Finishing the day on 1450 (though 300 cals of that was biscuits!). However, after my recent mini-egg & cupcake marathon, it's a step in the right direction!

Welcome newbies!

In terms of low carb on fast days i think it is just to make calories go further. Generally i eat nothing except a stock cube in hot water with chili until 5ish when i have an egg. I then do some exercise. Then i eat either shashouka or a stirfry with veg and meat/ fish.

1lb down here today so pleased given yesterdays fail. Got a few social things on this week so may mini fast on fri.

Good luck to any fasters!

Thank you for the welcome.
On a NFD I eat my TDEE calories, is that right?
My number seems so high 2239 or is it the BMR of 1444.
I thought I had worked this out and knew what I was doing, then realise I haven't

Jo

BigChoc is the one with all the stats so hopefully will come along and help soon.

Personally i think you should eat your tdee at the start even if it seems high until fasting gets embedded. Then when weight loss plateaus then look at tweaking there. That way its more likely to be a WOL rather than too hard and then you give up if you see what i mean. I guess it depends on lots of things like current weight, whether you have a special occasio in mind, how active you are etc.

My original plan was to weigh in monthly but I've decided I think weekly would be more beneficial to me to keep me focused, but it's not consumed my life like last time.

My results are in and after all that I've only lost 1 lb.

I'm a bit disappointed as I've done my 2 fast days last week and I've been making a lot healthier evening meals and been bulking it out with extra veg.

My downfall would normally be cakes and sweets but I deliberately didn't order any in cakes this week. And my seeets I've swapped a big £1 Harribo bag for asda tiny child sized bags that are 5 for a £1 and this week only had 2 bags. So for me that was a really good week.

The only thing I can think of why loss isn't greater is that I did have quite a large meal last night.

Oh well FD today, will keep on plodding along.

Second fd today and I'm going to struggle- stuck at home for second day in a row with a poorly toddler. Head been thumping since yesterday despite drinking tonnes of water.

Going to try and stick to it best I can

qucking I think that you should try to be happy with a 1lb loss. I recently listened to a radio programme (think it was on radio 4) where a scientist was talking about his lifetime research on keeping off weight - he was very definite that losing weight slowly is far more likely to lead to you keeping it off. He explained it scientifically, but, as I understood it, your body basically has time to catch up and not fight against itself. I try to keep thinking that if my weight loss averages only half a lb a week, I'll still be 2 stones lighter within a year.

Good luck everyone! FD for me today too - I'm going to repeat the piri piri & jalapeno mackerel with salad for dinner.

I decided to go into early maintenance half way through to my goal weight as I am not coping well emotionally at the moment. I think it is just bad PMT, but I need to take my foot off the pedal a bit and give myself a break from ADF.

I attempted an FD yesterday, but had a binge after dinner instead. I ate a little over my TDEE, but I am not stressing about it. Today I am attempting another FD with the view of it being my last FD this week, which will be a classic 5:2 (but with binges in between - oh, well). Hoping to just maintain the loss I achieved so far. Once my period arrives and I feel more human and more in control of my appetite (which normally drops off a cliff as soon as I start bleeding), I will go back to ADF.

Good luck to all the fasters! I'm on my third litre of green tea this morning and feeling a little better than I did yesterday.

Duck, a pound is a pound! It is so easy to focus on what you have not achieved, but one pound was my weight loss total the first week I started doing IF this time round and I fitted in 3 fasts in one week and lots of good NFDs too. All the changes you made to your eating habits are already paying off.

Welcome, irritation and try to cheer up. You've come to the right place and the right WOL
The change to your body is nothing that you have caused, but it is something you can change

For several of us post-meno, 5:2 is the only method of weight management that works, including those of us who never had much problem before meno.
Probably because Intermittent Fasting has been shown to help some conditions related to insulin metabolism insulin e.g. PCOS, T2

Welcome, hangry

FDs are "no crap" days, so no alcohol, no sweets, biscuits, cake, crisps, pizza etc
Important: there is no allowance for exercise cals on FDs, so you may even be "minus". No problem.

There is no particular carb limit, but most folk find they feel fuller if their 500 cals (600 for men) are mostly progein and masses of veg.
Most people eat rather too many carbs normally, i.e. more energy than their body uses, so it helps to have 2 low carb days per week

You don't have to count cals on NFDs unless you know you overeat, or find after a couple of weeks that you are not losing.

If you count, aAm to eat around TDEE.
In your case, start with 2200 for say the first 2 weeks. You can tweak up / down after this.
Make sure you calculated TDEE with exercise set to one level lower than you think (Mosely's advice)

If you are using fitbit, do NOT add back exercise cals on NFDs - your TDEE already includes this and you don't want to count exercise twice.

For counting cals in: mfp seems good

Stay strong, kitkat That sounds really tough, but you are even tougher.

Duck Weight loss is v individual, depending on eating habits, sex (which sex, not how often !), age, height, hormonal balance / conditions, prescribed meds, sleep deprivation, stress, activity level and umpteeen other factors.

Most people average 1lb weekly longterm.
People around healthy BMI may lose more slowly, whereas with a few stone to go may lose 2-4 lb for several weeks
There is usually a quicker loss the first couple of weeks, but not if you do 5:2 right after another diet.

What may help
Just 1 week mfp, as a reality check on portion size, total sugar, hidden calorie bombs etc

It is really positive that you have improved what you are eating, but you may also need to focus on how much
However, this may still be well above TDEE, which would slow down or even stop weight loss.

Birth I usually recommend 5:2 rather than ADF, because 5:2 is much gentler.
It gives 5 days oer week when you are not dieting, so you can relax.

So many people are under stress from job / family / general life which doesn't combine well with fasting every other day.

You are clearly finding ADF too stressful, so I strongly recommend that you do NOT resume it.

Accept a slughtly slower loss with 5:2 - which actually isn't slower if ADF makes you binge
In any case, health and peace of mind are worth going more slowly and being kind to yourself

I failed - still ate well though (mostly) but not a fd. Will aim to fast tomorrow instead :).

On a positive note it did mean I could exercise today