5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

dot Everything I've read has suggested that short fasts (like those of 5:2) don't have a negative effect on metabolism...but I would be really interested to know whether that is actually true or not?

Sorry BigChoc - I cross posted with you then - is it also the case, do you think, that short fasts are unlikely to negatively affect metabolism? It is a slight worry to me as I have an underactive thyroid and my metabolism is already fairly poor.

kneesup Most folk lose on 5:2 without counting NFD cals - these threads usually have the "hard core" who find it tough to lose on any diet.

No diet will work without a weekly calorie deficit. It's just each diet has its own way of trying to make that easier.

NFDs are intended to be "maintenance days" so you don't eat back the FD deficit
When people have been overweight for some years, they often get used to eating / drinking far more calories than their body can burn
In such cases, they must train themselves to eat / drink as appropriate for their body, i.e. TDEE (not like their male OH or their taller, athletic chum)

Also, some folk are still eating as in their teens and early twenties, when their metabolism was rocketing and they could eat anything - that had to change in adulthood.

I suggest you mfp for a full week, as a reality check, so you can see where you need to change habits.
All the food you mentioned are the classic mix of carbs and fat which are far too moreish for your body, because they don't occur in nature.
They are also massive calorie bombs - if you retrospectively mfp them, you'd get a serious shock.

Yes - I know that you're right - it would be a shock! I've also just read your previous post regarding metabolism - that is good to know!

Thank you BigChoc, I ended up on 860 today in the end and was a bit annoyed but then I saw your post so I am telling myself it was all for the best

Anyone who has lost a lot of weight on ANY diet or diets:

Your real TDEE will be lower than the theoretical TDEE from the calculator for the next year, possibly for a few years if you have lost several stone.

This phenomenon is called "adaptive thermogenesis":
i.e. your body dials down its metabolism to try to return to its previous weight.

You need to be watchful during maintenance until your body accepts your new lower set point
Adaptive thermogenesis is a major reason why so many folk regain, or why others find it tough to progress after the first 2 stone or so.

Dr Varady said that someone who has lost 50lb+ may have a TDEE up to 12% lower than the theoretical TDEE, i.e. lower than a person who is that weight naturally, not after dieting.
The amount varies according to how much you have lost, so if you lost only a stone it might be say only 2-3 % - nothing to worry about.

Risk factors:
What may reduce metabolism for some people is longterm - usually over 3 months - daily calorie restricted diet e.g. months on end of say 1200 cals if your TDEE is over 1600.

What increases the likelihood is if someone is already highly stressed due to family / work / lack of sleep etc or is already around normal BMI, so not much bodyfat available to burn.
And especially if, for months, the daily CR is combined with long cardio sessions - e.g. 90 minute runs - most days.

Some people find metabolism drops if they restrict either fat or carbs for several months or years - it depends on the individual.

Intermittent fasting has the advantage that you always have some days each week on which you eat up to TDEE, in fact usually one day when you exceed it.

Research and studies of patients e.g. by Dr Jason Fung, suggests that
IF maintains metabolism as much as possible during weight loss and even helps increase the "set point" of your natural weight, to help avoid regain.

IF uses the same principle of "hormesis" as HIIT to optimise results:
intervals of short bursts of high loading / fasting separated by recovery periods.

That's a good start, superking

BigChoc today I am particularly grateful to you for sharing your usual FD menu of fish and salad. Even though I am quite used to IF I never really felt satisfied with the amount of food I had on FDs, but I figured they are fasts for a reason .

Then, on Friday I had a tuna steak with a salad for supper and I felt full. Even though I don't normally have lunch on my FDs, today by 12 PM I felt so hungry I could cry. I could really feel a binge coming on, but I didn't have any convenience food in the house, so I dug out some smoked mackerel (80g) from the back of the fridge and had it with a whole bag of bistro salad, all coming to around 300 kcal. It was delicious and so filling I did not get hungry again until the evening.

Fish and salads is going to be my FD staple!

After weeks of illness, first me, then the kids, then me again, I'm struggling to get back to fasting.

Didn't manage a fast at all last week, and didnt even try yesterday.

I want today to be a success. I want this whole week to be a success!
Will check in throughout the day to keep me focused!

Maz
If you still feel unwell, don't fast. Just do healthy maintenance:
no snacks, no junk, no booze, just nutritious meals and lots of water.

If you feel well, but not yet in the mood, I suggest the first week easing in with 2 or 3 miniFDs (800-100 cals) instead of FDs

Hi Good morning all. I'm sidling back in having been off in feinting limbo land. it’s my first FD yesterday: Monday . I’ve tried 5:2 before in 2013 and slid off the wagon. I’m hoping I can do it this time – I’m more settled in my life. In everything I read, all the evidence points to fasting for weight loss and health and avoiding all those scary age related things like Alzheimer’s, which my mum has and her two sisters – even though I know it’s not hereditary, I want to do my best to not put myself in the firing line for it by trying to keep healthy, slim and fit
My dh has been doing 5:2 since 2013 and now maintains his weight. He swears by it, Me? I’ve tried to do it with him and and as I say gave up and since then have dallied with all sorts of plans, diets and no diets, putting weight on in the process and hoping that it would all disappear through osmosis – well, guess what? It didn’t: nothing has worked!! I’m angry about my own lack of action and frustrated at myself that Im still overweight!!!
So here I am determined to give it a good go.
I managed my fast fine apart from a lingering headache and I drank loads of water for it and it' seems to have gone this morning. I also had a funny taste in my mouth too. Surprised that I don't yet feel hungry this morning

Morning all and good luck fasters!

Good fast for me yesterday. Interestly my cup of tea this morning tasted so sweet.

Trying to do mfp today and focus on eating really well. BigChoc i know you should go one down on your tdee. What do u think i should put in given that i either run 5/6k a day or swim a mile. I do 30mins yoga each day and am part time teacher and mother of toddler twins. Basically deciding between 1300 ish and 1500ish. Thanks.

FD yesterday ended at around 700 calories but I am planning on having a mini fast on Friday in addition to my standard fast tomorrow (I ususally fast Monday and Wednesday) to try and give my loss a kick up the bum! I guess that now I am only about 10lbs over what I want to be the top end of my target weight range it is going to get harder. I do also wonder if the frequent night wakings my lovely toddler subjects me to has some impact on weight loss. I am really knuckling down anyway and putting EVERYTHING into MFP to see where I'm slipping up as I am determined to shift those last 10-15lbs and actually keep it off this time. I'm quite cross at myself having been at about target this time last year but I had a run of awful health problems in the latter part of last year and my weight didn't even feature on my list of worries. I am feeling much better now and I've lost weight and kept it off before (until I got pregnant!) I have no more babies planned so this is it for life now

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, Nell
To avoid FD headaches, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) neat.
It replenishes list salt and minerals, also boosts B vits

Bestbees Going down 1 level, I suggest using "moderately active" or 1500 for NFDs, whichever is higher.
Review progress after say 2 weeks and tune up / down according to fat loss and hunger

Also, I don't know if your yoga has upper body resistamce training ?
If not, I recommend you swap 1-2 of your current exercise sessions for this, e.g. pressups, tricep dips, dumbells etc
With all the cardio you do, I advise this resistance training to retain upper body muscle, so you just lose bodyfat.
Your running takes care of lower body muscle, of course, but swimming may not be enough for upper body.

placemarking for later

Bigchoc I don't like marmite, anything else I can have. Predictive text I meant dieting limbo land not feinting 😀

Rejoining with new name after slipping off the radar and slopping on some pounds. Won't be weighing for a few weeks, using my clothes as a measure. Would like to get back to where I was before Christmas so going to park myself here for a while for support as it seemed to really help last time.

Not sure if I am going to do 5:2, 4:3 or BSD yet, am going to see how I get on this week. Will catch up with the thread now, it's been a while.

Thanks bigchoc. I am training for a 10k run and a 1.4 mile open water swim so dont really want to cut them out. But i will try to add more upper body work. The yoga has some upper bod work like planks and push ups. Would a small 10 minute thing twice a week be enough?

I am going to stick with around 1500cals and tweak as and when i need too.

Aiming to avoid snacks, but is it awful to have some nuts and fruit before i swim on fnd? So today i have had mackerel and avocado on rye sourdough for breaksfast. Lunch was crudite and humous. Dinner wont be until after i swim so 8ish and will be homemade pasta in a cheese sauce and veg.

Thanks!

Well - I've actually quite enjoyed fasting today. Have not had anything to eat yet and am planning to have piri piri smoked mackerel and salad for dinner.

I hope that everyone else is doing well today - I am finding this thread to be very motivational, so thank you all.

Love how mackerel is clearly the flavour of the day! I stocked up at Aldi today, it is such an easy meal.

I struggled with my NFD today because I'm feeling positively ravenous all the time. I'm already at my TDEE and dinner is yet to come (though it is just mushroom soup today, so should not do too much damage).

FD tomorrow which should be easy enough, but for my next NFD I think I need to up protein. Today, I had porridge for breakfast and quinoa with a salad for lunch, but despite huge portions still felt hungry.

nell I treat it like taking headache medicine, not supposed to be nice and I can gulp down a teasp.
Funnily enough, I quite like it now.
Alternatives:
1 tbsp (note bigger amount) of unsweetened soy sauce (also 10 cals)
1 pkt miso soup (29-35 cals)

Welcome back, slimdog I suggest you start with classic 5:2 and resume good habits:
no snacking, sensible NFDs, alcohol within nhs guidelines.

If you like low carb, then you could do 5:2 BSD, much gentler than the full monty BSD - same food, but only 2 days on 800 cals.

I recommend people keepi 4:3 in reserve as a plateau-buster, or if they are under time pressure for a major social event.

Hi - first FD today. Its been ok but dying to get home for dinner now (packet of flavoured rice as too hungry to cook anything)- been sat in a meeting all afternoon with everyone around me eating biscuits while I sipped hot water!

Looking forward to breakfast tomorrow!

Had a good NFD here, currently on 1390 cals and planning a mug of chocolate oat milk warmed up once the kids are asleep (I get having my dessert as part of a meal but I don't want to argue with them that they can't have any chocolate milk on a week night!) which will take me to about 1550. I'm under TDEE anyway and have had loads of veg today so feeling good about my day