5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Pimpernella Don't beat yourself up about falling off track - it happens to most of us at some time.
Just move on and decide that tomorrow is the start of your new WOE

Well done, bestbees

Just completed day one FD - I think not eating all day and then just having dinner will work best for me, as once I start eating it's harder to stop! I really need to focus on not snacking as that is my downfall.

I can do this!

That's what I did yesterday too Duckies I actually found it okay - was a little bit lightheaded as didn't have diner until 7, but it was manageable.

Thank you.
Trouble is- I give myself the tomorrow talk all the time. I try not to have grazing food in ( my perpetually hungry teenager complains ) but have even started on the rich tea biscuits and rice crackers I buy for him which I didn't formally eat! unfortunately...I bake if there is nothing in!
I did manage a fast day yesterday. I do most Mondays as the weekend guilt is so bad. I don't eat much during the day in the week...I suppose because each day I am trying to have a fast day...then I spoil it.

While I'm here...how long does it take for your brain to catch up and think of yourself as thin. In my head, I'm still fat.
Thanks for the advice.

Pimpernella i find if i cut out all processed sugar that crazy need to stuff my face totaly goes! Not sure if thats worth a try?

NFD here so focusing on no grazing and 10 portions if fruit and veg.

Good luck to any fasters!

Thanks Bees...it's a thought. I did give up chocolate for about 4 days of lent!
I think the problem is a mental one. I need a strategy for when I'm just too miserable to care about it. I did have a goal before which helped. I'm too scared to get the scales out. Either I will have put on loads and feel mortified at all the hard work undone or it won't be too bad which will feel like permission to carry on. (unlikely) I keep telling myself I will weigh in when I've been good for three weeks and it shouldn't be too bad but I never have a good week. Perhaps I should just weigh in...

Morning all,

Checking in for a FD here.

Didn't do my usual Monday FD yesterday, as it was DH's last day at home so wanted to enjoy a nice meal.

Well done to Monday's fasters! Is anyone else fasting today?

Good luck on your FD, Maz and any other Tuesday fasters.
I'm fasting too.

Well done on your 1st FD, Kneesup, Duckies
What helps to avoid weakness it headache during the FD is to glug a teasp of Marmite (only 10 cals, so doesn't break the fast). It replenishes salt & other minerals and boosts B vits.

pimpernella In your case, I suggest you weigh and measure yourself - it may break the cycle.
Choose tomorrow, weigh naked, first thing in the morning after loo, but before eating or drinking anything.

What is it that makes you miserable - I gather that is work ? Is it your boss / colleagues / customers / too much to do ?

You need to work on coping strategies that don't involve food.
Strategies If you binge at home:
Drink a full glass of water
go for a walk / jog outside
dance to your fav music in the kitchen
paint your nails
even write out on some paper "I won't binge today"

I would like to join your thread.

I started 5:2 last summer and did it until November with lots of success, it really worked for me. But I became obsessed with it, weighing daily and it was constantly on my mind. I fell off the wagon at Xmas and never went back on 5:2 as I have depression and I have buried my head in the sand.

I have most definitely put on weight but I cannot bring myself to actually weigh myself as I'm now on ADs and am actually functioning again I am worried of upsetting myself with the damage done.

I spoke to my DH last night and he said what if I did a blind weigh in then I cannot get obsessed about numbers on scales as I don't know.

What do you think? Part of me thinks that's a really good idea. But the other half says get on the scales, put it behind you and crack on??

I want to do this, I can do it but in my mind I'm just don't know if I'm ready to face the facts. I know that sounds so silly of me.

My Target was originally 9stone, I reached this and maintained for a while.
The last record I have is 9.5 stone on 9th December but I fear I could be anywhere upto about 11 stone now.

Welcome, Duck You did really well to lose before, so you know you can do this.
I suggest in your case that you weigh and measure, as part of a decision to move on and get back in the 5:2 swing
Then weigh & measure every 4 weeks, or even every 6 weeks

For you: do NOT weigh daily, or even weekly
This will avoid the stres of temporary blips - weight can naturally fluctuate a few lb per week, due to hormonal swings, water retention / release, undigested food etc,

The really important thing is to drop any feeling of guilt.
We don't do guilt here

Scales measure your weight, NOT your moral worth

Many people go off track after losing well for a while
This is because it is essential to have a sustainable WOE - maybe a slower one - and then an effective maintenance plan (many folk just think they can "wing it")

Just decide the date of your next FD, plan all your food in advance - and go for it !

Hello everyone, MazDazz I am in for a fast day today and the plan is only drinks and a few sips of Kefir until dinner which will be a nice home made soup.
Today should be my weekly weight in, but it ain't gonna happen as the last 3 days have been a disaster; the tilt to the right on the scales would finish me, why do I keep doing this to myself? ...BigChoc your last post is spot on, again
Welcome KingDuck, you will find so much support here.

Job is stressful and hours are long. I get home having had a terrible day - feel like a rubbish Mum as I don't have much left for the children. I then see no reason not to eat - can always be good tomortow/ next week. Will see GP today to discuss anti depressants life isn't great at the moment. Unfortunately they can cause weight gain in some people so I probably won't take them.
Really appreciate the advice...sorry if I've derailed the positivity!
I will try the water and the run! The dancing might scare the children!

Duck I could have written your post...literally! My last weigh in was 9.5 some weeks ago now. I too have been toying with the idea of standing on the scales with my eyes closed while DH takes the reading.

Just relax, muck Do what you can. Tiny steps, remember

pimpernella Dance with the kids, take them for a walk - or do you get home too late ?

Hello IFers and thank you BigChoc for still running the threads!

Having put over 4st during my second pregnancy, I lost most of the baby weight a couple of years ago on 5:2, which then I had to upgrade to 4:3 to shift the stubborn pounds. As I was still BF I then stopped and maintained at around 10st (I'm 5'10"). However, since last summer my chocolate habit has been creeping up steadily and my life has been ruled by sugar - I started developing a pot belly. I decided to go back to IF to see if I could get back to my happy weight of 9.4st, but mostly to return to a flat belly and free myself from the tyranny of sweet treats. Would love to lower my body fat enough to see some abs (I exercise around 6 times a week, mostly yoga). Vain, moi?

I started doing ADF a couple of weeks ago and I am now feeling fantastic on it. The first few days were tough, but I am now into the swing of things and love the freedom to eat whatever I want on NFDs, particularly because my appetite has now diminished, so I do not tend to go over my goal weight TDEE even if I do indulge in a brownie or three. I think I might have lost around 2 pounds already, but that remains unconfirmed since my electronic scales give me 5 different readings in one sitting. I may have to weigh myself at the gym to get a better idea.

The thing that helps me most on FDs is green tea (I drink so much sometimes I overdose on caffeine). I am also back to using MFP so that I can keep control of my cravings, track the FDs and NFDs and watch my weekly calorie deficit.

The nicest change since I started is that I am really craving healthy food and have been eating lots of salads and vegetables. Also, I feel as though the weight-loss so far, however small, has enabled me to get up into a handstand for the first time.

I remember this thread being hugely inspiring last time I fasted and I wanted to share the pains and the pleasures here once again.

Just wanted to add a caveat to my last insufferably chirpy message, which, now that I have read the last few pages of this thread (note to self: think/read before writing) appears a little tone-deaf.

I have huge respect for those who battle their weight alongside other challenges/mental health issues/job stresses/life's general crapness. I am in a pretty happy place (I know, you could not tell that from the previous message), yet I still find keeping the weight off much more of a challenge than it should be. Just wanted to send all around.

Not insufferable one! I reckon we call in deliberately for the motivational positivity ( and Chocs great advice)

Welcome back, birth < peers under new hat, then waves >
Yes, many of us find that IF is excellent for zapping stubborn belly fat (e.g. post-meno) that other weight loss methods can't touch.

Well done on the handstand NSV and healthy veg NSV
I also find this WOE boosts my veg intake and healthy habits: my usual FD meal is salmon fillet and a huge salad

choc problem ?
< looks around guiltily >
For choc or other sweet / junky stuff you want to get under control, I recommend 2:5ing it,
i.e. have it on only 2 (non-consecutive) NFDs, sensible portions

Maintenance:
Almost everyone needs a definite plan ( more than spinning the prayer wheel & hoping ) orr they tend to slide towards their old WOE ....

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist

Possible Plans:
6:1
daily 16:8 p, with a monthly FD
5:2 (eating back the deficit for more indulgent weekends)

Whatever you choose, I recommend:

• Weigh at least weekly and return to 5:2 whenever you gain 4 lb (so you never have a mountain to climb)
• Before you take a holiday break, write in your calendar the next FD, ideally a date 1-2 days after you return. Again, immediately work to lose any weight gained, then return to maintenance plan. Otherwise there is the risk you'll keep it putting off - and then putting it on !

Thanks, Choc, so much good advice, especially wrt maintenance and limiting treats to 2 days a week. I'm hoping I can manage that.

Had a bit of a blowout NFD today and I am already a little over my TDEE, but may still have to have some steak when DH comes home. I made a gorgeous veg soup ready for tomorrow's FD, with a big bowl only coming to around 150kcal. More than a quarter of my kcals today came from cheesecake and brownies, both homemade but rather full of fat and sugar - you can see how I need ADF in my life.

Choc, have you got a view on MG?

Pim, thanks for the reassurance.

Hi everyone.

Lots of great advice BigChoc as always. Seems like we have lots of people retunring here which reinforces that this is a woe not a diet!

2nd FD for me today. Stock with chili flakes at lunch and then pork stir fry at dinner. I am going to the cinema tonight so will have to be good at avoiding snacks. Might get a diet drink, not great but will stop me falling into popcorn!

Good luck BestBees and all the othr Wednesday fasters

Birth Even when weight is at goal, it's important - wrt longterm health risks - to keep the amount of sugary fatty junk within sensible limits. Just as it is to keep alcohol within limits.

I recommend a 80:20 calorie guideline for the weekly total of sugary treats, crisps, alcohol,
i.e. everything that Michael Pollan calls "edible food-like substances" or empty calories:
Michael Pollan's guide

Since junk "treats" are very calorie dense, that gives a reality check about portions.
That was a wakeup call for me, once I realised that I gained almost all my enjoyment from the first choc donut, rather than the subsequent ones.

btw, what is MG ?

Morning everyone.

Fasting today- I've had a bad week food wise. I've been on nights and eaten so many sugary things, definitely eating more than my tdee. Hoping my fast days will repair some of the damage (next one will be Friday). I plan to have a healthy non fast day tomorrow too.

It's funny when I eat junk food, it's not like it was even enjoyable and worth it- I just scoffed it to keep me going :(

Have a nice day all x

Thanks BigChoc, monthly weigh in sounds doable. It would be nice to put it all out of my mind to take the pressure off.

To avoid temptation I will jump on the scales Tomorrow morning record the numbers and put the scales away in a high cupboard that I can't reach without getting the step stool out.

I'm getting nervous wondering what damage I've done.