5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm on a second fast day today - thanks for the marmite tip BigChoc - I will try that this afternoon.

My challenge today is going to be that I promised my son I'd make him a chocolate and banana cake and it's really going to test my resolve. Although, I suppose that I can plan to have a little piece tomorrow...

Just view the number as your starting point, duck and move on from there.
"The past is a foreign country and you did things differently then"

keepon Last study I read is that fitness gadgets can underestimate by up to 15% - software is not reliable about judging movements and their vigour.
Also, most don't even calculate "net cals" for exercise, but total cals, i.e. they don't subtract the cals you burn by being alive and awake.
The most reliable method is to use TDEE Calc as your NFD aim.
For this, Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think, because people always overestimate.

Choc, you are spot on as always, I am forever chasing the first chocolate hit. By the time I worked my way through an entire 100g bar, it is no longer a pleasure by any means. ADF means I don't get that many NFDs to gorge on sweets. Will try to have them only a couple of times a week from now on. Luckily, I don't like booze or crisps, so at least I don't have to fight that battle. I know the solution is to stop saving calories by having smaller portions during mealtimes only to then eat 500 kcals in chocolate.

Sorry, I should have said MSG. It makes everything taste amazing and I never experienced any of the maligned side effects, but I wonder if I should cut it out? BBC article on MSG No, my grandmother would not recognise it as food (I really liked that link).

FD here today, DH woke me up at some ungodly hour so I got a short yoga practice in before the kids awoke, then spent my lunch-break doing pilates. I am now on my second pot of green tea mixed with cranberry and blood orange tea (Twinings). Might have to try to go for a total water fast today as I won't be able to fit in a FD at the weekend due to Mother's Day arrangements.

kneesup Good luck with baking on a FD. I am now watching my toddler dip buttered bread into her soup and slurp loudly. Now, where is my willpower when I need it?

The go between bigchoc? One of my A level texts

Had a sort of fast yest and scales going back in the right direction. Feeling much better now. Thanks for water tip and well wishes. Think I will do 800 again tomorrow or fri.

I'm on second FD of the week. My hangover Monday turned out to be food poisoning from the celebratory Chinese

Well spotted,YumYum
That was indeed from L P Hartley's "The Go-between" (2nd half of quote slightly modified by me)

overtired I hope you are fully recovered.
Sometimes your gut can take several days - after symptoms have gone - to recover from an upset, so fasting can cause symptoms to reappear.

If that happens, stop fasting and just do healthy maintenance for a full week, i.e. no booze, junk, very spicy food or fruit juice

Birth MSG seems safe enough for most people unless you have it in huge amounts.
However, possibly up to a third of people seem sensitive to it and experience side effects if they have large dose.
I'd say avoid MSG if you experience these symptoms: increased asthma attacks, headaches, muscle tightness, numbness/tingling, weakness, hot flushes.

Otherwise, enjoy in moderation, but avoid on FDs - as we avoid all other junk and booze when fasting.
That means you have at keast 2 or 3 days weekly without any MSG. So should be ok to have it on some of the other days.

Well... my fd was successful 😊

But I'm now laid here WIDE awake 😩😂

Avoided snacks yesterday at cinema.

Weigh in after 2nd FD is a 3lb loss!!

Well done on your SV, bestbees

orca What really helps sleep:
no electronics for at least 1 hr before bed - including mumsnetting ! - TV, gaming, phone, tablet etc

Orca i think fasting can keep you awake as your brain and body are primed to find food! Perhaps save a few calories for prebed snack- hard boiled egg?

I have just faced the music and jumped on the scales first time since early November I was back then 9stone 5.....

I am today 10 stone 10.4 not totally surprised as I thought upto 11, but a smidge gutted.

My husband said that my obsession last time with daily scale hopping was unhealthy but it worked as I am a visual person and it gave me motivation every day to carry on. So I don't get disheartened and give up I am allowing myself one weigh in tomorrow. Just to prove to myself again 5:2 works before I hide the scales for the next month.

I've created a new page on my app for 2017 and as BCF said last years gone, it's in the past this is a new start.

FD today and I have loads to keep me occupied my new inbuilt wardrobe was finished yesterday and today I am filling it with my clothes.

quckingduck - less than a stone isn't that bad - you can soon rectify things.

Baking on a FD was almost unbearable, but I've run for an hour this morning, so am treating myself to a slice of cake this afternoon!

Exercise
It usually helps to keep prolonged medium cardio - like running - to NFDs, because that type of exercise normally takes more energy from glycogen stores, which will be very low on FDs.

Recommended types of Exercise on FDs:
. Just a relaxing walk outside - have a training restday
. Lifting weights / resistance training, up to 1 hr
. HIIT, up to 1hr or just Mosely's 5min Fat Blasts ( , see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP ) plus a short walk

However much exercise you do on FDs, Mosely says do NOT add back exercise calories - stick to 500 or whatever you would do without exercise.
Too easy to add back more than the net cals burned.

Exercise cals are allowed for on NFDs only, via activity level in TDEE

Well done, duck you have taken the first step and it's not so bad.
Now you can return to 5:2 - you know it works for you, because it did before
Use the NFDs as training for how to eat around TDEE, for later maintenance habits

That's good advice BigChoc - there's no way I'd be able to run on a FD. In fact, I was a bit bothered about running the morning after a FD, but it seems to be fine. I just need to have breakfast beforehand (whereas I'd normally wait until after).

Hi all, am keeping on with a very limited version of IF and it is going okay.

Just wanted to say I'm a daily weigher and it is very helpful for me. I use the Libra app which gives a trend line so you don't place too much importance on any particular day's weight. Libra app is recommended by a bloke who wrote this guide - a free download.

Thanks for the tips ladies. I'm definitely guilty of looking at my phone before bed!

NFd today and again, eaten too much :( Decided to mix it up a bit tomorrow and try just fluids for my fd. Need to do better next week.

Newbie here!
First FD yesterday. I ate approx 200 cals which I was fine with but had a really restless nights sleep. Anyone else had a similar experience? Maybe I need a light meal before bed?
This morning I felt awful until I had eaten some breakfast.
I was able to bake & cook dinner for DH no problem.

duck, your new wardrobe sounds amazing. I am trying to shed a similar amount of weight, just under a stone I think, but I am very impressed you are doing that while recovering from depression . The weight totally crept up on me and I have been well.

Welcome, Palindrome! Sounds like a very successful first FD. Sorry, no advice on sleep because I never suffer any sleep issues.

NFD here today, which I find tougher than FDs. Exercise wise, I did yoga and a 30 mins of cycling. This thread helped so much with food choices; I had massive portions for breakfast, lunch and dinner (porridge, veg soup + avocado toast, prawn korma + naan). I has some pecan nuts too (700kcals in 100gr!) and strawberries in between meals, which all came to around my TDEE. No calories left for sweets so I just did not have any (if only it was this easy every day!). I will be making semifreddo for the weekend in a minute and trying not to lick the bowl, which I should manage because I still feel very full.

My broken scales were telling me this morning I also lost around 3lbs since last week. Bestbees, snap!

I weighed in at 9.7st or 62kg. Around half way to my goal weight.

FD tomorrow, but I will be out in the evening so will have to save all my kcals until then. Will just have to order a large salad with a grilled fish. Just as well I don't drink.

Well done on your 1st FD, Palindrome
Most folk find their sleep improves once their body fully adapts to fasting

I recommend you eat your full 500 cals.
So e.g. a 300 cal supper, low GI, say fish & veg, might have helped you sleep.

Do you also remember to switch off electronics an hour before bed ?

A supper should also help how you feel in the morning - your glycogen stires would be empty after only 200 cals

Birth You are having my usual FD menu. It is super healthy and delic.
Avoid any house / creamy dressing - I recommend balsamic vinegar and lemon. You don't need oil with fish.

Second FD for me today, 'twas harder than the first one. Will weigh in tomorrow and hopefully that will give me some more motivation. Off to dream about food now.

FD for me today.

Still keeping up with the kettlebell exercises and feeling so much stronger for it.

Saw an interesting book advertised on Amazon yesterday. 'Breakfast is the most dangerous meal'- seems to be based on the experiences of a diabetic doctor who noticed that his blood glucose was high in the mornings and spiked massively when eating breakfast. Without breakfast, levels fell throughout the morning which much lower spikes overall after lunch and dinner.