5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Shark week. Had a couple of very hungry mornings where I needed to eat breakfast earlier and felt all shaky when I tried to leave it later. So I just ate a healthy breakfast and then managed not to snack in the evening (which I am v proud of).

Managed to leave breakfast late again this morning.

Have also been increasing my fruit and veg which I'm sure is helping.

yumyum well done on your SV! Great stuff. Very difficult when you're hangry to stay on track!

building hope your week is getting better. I hate that shaky feeling. I've been skipping breakfast for so long now that I don't really get it in the morning, but I do in early evening. Yuk.

I think it's FD#2 today. We'll see. I have lots to do and it's always better that way, so I think I'll crack on with it.

Good luck all other Wednesday fasters.

Congratulations on your SV, YumYum lightest in 15 years is a great milestone.

Well done on the no snacking and veg NSVs, building
During an FD, glug a teasp of neat Marmite (only 10 cals) mid-morning and afternoon. This replenishes salt & minerals and boost the B vits.
It can help avoid headaches and weakness

What may help push breakfast back is to have a high caffeine drink instead, like a double espresso.

Don't rush things - if you can gradually move breakfast back an hour say, over the next week or two,
then that's good progress in extending the overnight fast
Your body needs time to adapt to fasting

Mosely & others say there are benefits to keeping 12 hours between supper and the next meal, so that would be a good aim
The day after an FD though, I'd recommend you eat breakfast on that NFD, at least for now.

Good luck on your FD, confused and any other Wednesday fasters

FD for me today. Not lost anymore weight - am pre-menstrual though. I seem to be developing persistent tinnitus. I've had a regular ringing in my ears for the last few weeks! Very annoying! It's not likely to be fast related is it?

Thanks for clarifying that BCF. My tdee now & target only has 100 cals difference. I'm going to eat near tdee today in prep for tomorrow's fd 2. Will put on some w/g rice for dinner and have granary with my cauliflower soup at lunch.

Thanks for posting this. Just what I need right now.

Hi can I join? 😁
Did my first FD yesterday.
I think I ate about 700 Calories but I did 2 decent dog walks.

My TDEE is 1750 as I'm only 5'2.

I'd like to be around 9.5 stone
9stone
I'm currently 10.5 , I've been 10st for 13 years but after a hideously stressful year where I lived off toast my weight has crept up.

Yesterday was ok, not as bad as I thought it would be.

Quick question, on MFP it is showing my daily calorie intake as 1200.
How do I change it so I can eat at tdee and fast days.

I'm planning on doing 2 or 3 FD a week probably on about 650 calories each FD.

Welcome, ihatethecold
Most useful tips:

• no snacking ever, just have any "treats" as part of a meal
• Drink lots of water

Most people just use mfp to count the calories and ignore any whinges about eating too little (FDs) / too much to lose (NFDs)
However, maybe a clever poster may know how to tweak mfp

With my fitness pal its really just for calorie tracking, you could manually adjust it every day but that would be a pain. The best thing to do is to go to goals and adjust the calories manually to tdee (another option is set it to maintenance instead of loss). You will still get told off for under eating but that is solved by not clicking on complete on your diary on fast days. The main downside is you wont get the nice message saying 'if you eat like this everyday you will be xxx lbs in 5 weeks' There is a paid for service where you can set different daily calorie allowances but I don't know how that works.

Sorry thanks also for the well dones bigchoc and confused!

Sounds a reasonable plan, Keepon
Just keep reminding yourself that no harm comes from feeling hungry for a day (unless you are underweight already, or ill)

Chant our mantra:
"I can have it tomorrow"

Make sure you have lots of water and keep busy.
I also enjoy herbal tea (with stevia instead of sugar) like peppermint, ginger, aniseed & fenchel
Good luck and post whenever you need support.

Hi Keepon, this thread is great for sorting out the non fast days which is the most important past I am beginning to see, learning how to eat day to day.

FD done, went well today. Probably about 550cal. Brutal group fight session this morning totally killed my appetite for hours, which helped...

Plus I eked out my calories very well today: small bowl of homemade soup, masses of salad (32 cal according to the packet), 150g prawns and a small chicken breast. All together just now, I find I need all my calories just before bed so I sleep ok.

Good luck tomorrow keepon. Before you know it you'll become really blase about your FDs.

How did every one else on FDs go today?

That's a good healthy FD, confused

FDs for newbies:

Curries, stews, stirfries are v filling if you pack them with veg, add lentils & beans
Lots of skinny soups around. Choose the kind with protein & veg, if you want something more filling.
I have hot Bovril (10 cals) as my "soup" starter instead

You get masses of salad veg for v few calories, so long as you dress it with lemon / balsamic / vinegar and not oily / creamy dressing.
Careful if you add cheese, bacon or croutons - weigh each first

Prawns are v low cal protein.
So is tinned tuna (in water, not oil)
Most fish is suitable, just avoid breaded or deep-fried, obv !

I've been fasting on a Monday and Thursday for three months now. On 'eat' days I have changed my diet so I'm not picking, if I do snack it's on raw fruit or veg. Other than that I eat one slice of whole meal toast for breakfast and a small bowl of berries (raspberries, blueberries, strawberries and grapes) lunch is a sandwich made with two slices of whole meal bread, chicken or tinned fish and salad, followed by a low fat yoghurt, then dinner is whatever I'm cooking (I cook from scratch and always dry fry mince/grill things, rarely have fattier choices like burgers or sausages) but with far less mash/pasta than I used to have an increase in veg. I've been power walking with my husky five miles three times a week and my step count is up to 18000-22000 steps. I have lost barely four pounds. I just want to cry. What on earth am I doing wrong???

Sorry to hear that Mummabear It's a rather slow SV.
Let's try to figure out what is happening < puts on thinking cap >

Are you already well within healthy BMI ?
If so, it is possible you may indeed lose v slowly, 1 lb per month.

If not, What can seriously slow weight loss:
. Are you on prescription meds, like ADs ?
. Have you recently changed hormonal contraception ?
. Do you have thyroid issues ?
. PCOS ?
. T1 / T2 / PreT2 ?
. Are you pre / menopausal ?
. On your FDs, are you usually around 500 or more about 800 ?

If none of the above:

• calculate TDEE setting activity level to "moderately active" (yes, even 20k steps counts as moderate) If you can post that, it helps me advise, because people with v high or v low TDEE need different tactics.
• For just one week, keep to typical routine, but weigh everything and mfp

I know it's a pain, but we need to know if you are eating back most of the FD deficit on NFDs
Or indeed if you have been eating too far below TDEE for months including before 5:2 - it's not usually a problem for 2-3 months, but any longer combined with daily long walks may overstress your body.
Your 5 NFDs should average around TDEE.

. Maybe don't make the changes below until AFTER your mfp week, so we know your current intake, on which you are not losing

Next Steps
. I am assuming from your post that you don't eat a lot of sugary crap and you stay within NHS alcohol guidelines daily
. And that on FDs, you don't have any alcohol, or sugary treats
. I am also assuming you don't binge, or at least no more than once per month.
(Post if any of the above assumptions are wrong)

. Aim to drink at least 1.5 litres water per day. No more than 1 fizzy drink per day.

. Snacking Keeps blood sugar raised so you don't burn fat on NFDs. That slows loss in some folk
. Snacking on fruit - Are you overdoing fruit ?
Mosely recommends no more than 2 portions per day, to keep blood sugar balanced.
80 g berries is a portion, or 1 apple / 1 banana etc.
After 2 portions, switch to veg for the rest of the day
Avoid fruit juice & dried fruit - high sugar & high cal which can slow weight loss
. Snacking on veg & fruit - are they raw, or are you adding hidden cals with dip etc ?
. Try eating 4 meals per day and cut out snacks.
Removing the cals in snacks, especially fruit and you could have another small meal, which would be more filling.
If you can't go 4+ hours between meals now, this may be because of your low fat meal type ...

. Your food seems low fat / high GI, which for many folk causes hunger / snacking and may slow fat loss
I recommend lower GI, boosting protein, including beans, peas & lentils and adding back some good fat

Breakfast especially needs more protein & lower GI - could you have 1-2 boiled / poached eggs or a tin of tuna instead of berries ? Porridge with cinammon for a change ?
Lunch - Swap that low-fat yoghurt for plain Greek fullfat yoghurt. You'll stay fuller longer.
Teatime - your extra meal instead of snacks - have a chunky protein & veg soup, e.g. pea & ham, chicken & veg.
Supper - forget the dry frying low fat routine.
Don't go mad, but have 1-2 teasp oil to fry. Or grill a chop or burger sometimes.

Ok, I think I need to do a lot more research on this. I do snack more than I should but it's veg sticks, or a ryvita thin. I assumed because it was healthy it didn't count, I think after reading your post I'm wrong. I'm completely T total. Have been all my life and I don't smoke either. I'm 42, still have regular periods and don't feel pre menopausal at all. I'm 5'9" and weight 12st 12lb so definitely overweight and I don't know what my BMI. I'll look over the rules of 5:2. I have a book on my kindle about it. I think I thought it was simpler than it is. Thank you for responding. I'll keep a list of what I am actually eating for the next week. Thank you.

I just did this. I put lightly active as that probably does describe me this week as I've had a heavy cold.

Mummabear It's useful that you are teetotal and your TDEE is quite high, so with some tweaking to do proper 5:2 you should be able to lose well

ALL calories matter, on any WOE (even if the authors / company pretend they don't)
The OP describes everything you need to know about 5:2, but the basic rules are:

• There are NO "free" calories on 5:2, not from snacks, not from healthy food, not from exercise.

• FDs (for women) are 500 cals, which includes any veg, hot drinks, milk, snacks etc

• FDs are 500 cals, regardless of how much exercise you do. Yes, this means you may even by overall "minus cals" for the day if you are super active.
  I know some people do 600-800 cal FDs, but I recommend against this - at least until you start losing more quickly.

• NFDs are "maintenance" days, in which you eat roughly your TDEE of 2150
  It
  Most people don't need to mfp for this, but since you are not losing much, I recommend you do so for a week or so, just to check your total intake.
  Many folk have found mfp a reality check / shock, which highlights NFD calorie bombs and also how much even "healthy" snacks add up to. It helps adjust portion size too.

• tip: NO snacking helps, FDs & NFDs, to control blood sugar and avoid slowing bodyfat loss

• tip: Plan your FD in advance, calorie counting absolutely everything that will pass ypur lips.
  If you have milk & sugar in FD hot drinks, weigh out and calorie count you day's allowance and put them in separate pots.

On NFDs, TDEE is a rough average aim over the whole 5 NFDs
So e.g. you can "bank" calories by eating under TDEE on weekday NFDs to enjoy a more indulgent weekend.

Tired today.
I'm trying to do a FD but I'm not going to come in close to 500

I've had 650 already with breakfast and lunch.

Very healthy and full of protein so I'm not going to give myself a hard time.

My head is throbbing a bit also.

If you stay within 1000 cals, then it's a miniFD, ihatethecold
Just no booze, sugary treats or other junk food.
Drink plenty of water.
Also, glug a teasp Marmite, to help avoid headaches on FDs - it replenishes salt & minerals, boost B vits.

For those wanting to ease into FDs , you can either relax and accept a slower loss, which is absolutely ok.
Or have 3 weekly miniFDs: Mon+Wed+Fri, until you get used to fasting and can switch to standard 5:2

I'm back, had so much on and try and get my head around my daughter's diagnosis. I need to get my head back in the game, although I have managed to maintain what I had lost.

I also need to stop the wine, I really enjoy a glass or two of an evening but it is definitely a crutch to help my unwind and forget my problems.

Really struggling to gain control over my weight. I need to lose at least a stone to help me physically with my darling daughter, so if no-one minds I want to share a picture of my motivation with you, my beautiful babies.

overtired your children are beautiful! What a lovely picture!