5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

FD for me today. It's working well for me to have Saturday as a 'treat' day - i.e. have a higher carb meal with a pudding- and then to follow it with a Sunday fast.

Have been doing 10 mins of kettlebell exercises every day this week and loving it!

Interesting about Michael Mosely suggesting 800 cals. I would have thought it would depend on your TDEE? I think 800 cals would be too high for me unless I did 4:3.

Ahhh interesting big choc, times when I have struggled have been exactly that sort of thing walking to and from supermarket carrying heavy shopping.

I am not sure about the 800 thing. No one on the BSD seems to have transitioned well to 5:2 800 cals for whatever reason....unless those people find it so easy they don't need to post anymore! I will try it when I get to 129lbs and any extra loss would be a bonus.

I can believe the 800 thing. I actually do better on 700-800 cal FDs. My body seems to panic / overstress on 500 and holds on to fat (my waistline increases). I have been fasting for nearly 2 years now though and am fairly lean.

I have a low tdee too (only 5 foot tall)

This is what I read:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/12/good-news-dieters-52-relaxes-rules-allows-800-calories-day/

He warns those extra calories should NOT be empty ones, i.e. it's NOT an "FD treat allowance"
He also suggests an early dinner the night before and a late FD breakfast, to extend the overnight fast to 13 hours without any calories

my thoughts
I wonder if he has considered women here:
he says don't use the "extra 200" for treats, but women would have an extra 300 (men have 600 FDs, whereas we have 500)

For men
800 FDs only loses 400 calories of the weekly FD deficit for men and we know they usually lose pretty rapidly on 5:2 now.
Logical, because even 600 FDs gives the average man on TDEE 2500 a substantially bigger deficit than most women.

So, 800 should be fine for most men, especially taller more active ones who may have TDEE 3500 say

BUT
For women, 800 FDs would lose 600 of the weekly FD deficit
A tall active women on TDEE 2000 would reduc and her weekly calorie deficit from 3000 to 2400, which might mean weight loss slows from averaging 1 lb weekly to 0.8 lb

Even more concerning for short women with say a 1500 TDEE:
They only have a 2000 deficit now, but on 800 FDs, this would reduce to 1400, well under 0.5 lb weekly

This situation would worsen for those women who have difficulty staying within TDEE on NFDs, because they already eat back the FD deficit here.

My advice
If you are a man or have a TDEE 2400+ this sounds an easier alternative if you don't mind slightly slower loss.
If you are a short sedentary woman, or already losing slowly due to overindulgence on NFDs, then be very cautious - you would likely notice much slower loss.

What I have advised in the past for those who find 500 FDs too tough is to have
3 miniFDs (800-1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri
This has suited several folk on these threads and seems to give similar weight loss to standard 5:2

On maintenance 800 FDs sound fine and in fact that's what I often do

yumyum The BSD is a VLCD of 800 cals daily for 8 weeks.
It was intended as a short term diet to reverse T2 and is also for those who are pre T2, to avoid getting T2.
The idea is that people either maintain, or move to a longterm weight loss WOE like 5:2

However, many people don't take this step, because although they can fast, they can't handle eating normally.

One of the many advantages of ordinary 5:2 is that the NFDs train you how to eat "normally" which is essential to avoid regain later.

So, with the BSD, I'd advise that as soon as someone finishes the 8 weeks ot however long they stay on it, they move immediately onto 5:2 BSD or 5:2 itself.
Even if they want to rest and maintain for a while, they need this structure to learn how to eat longterm.
5:2 would help avoid the regain that is common after stopping VLCDs

I think you are right about BSD needing to be changed up at the 8 week phase Bigchoc. A lot of us who have been on the BSD thread who initially tried it (me included) were people who hadn't had much success with in the past with 5:2 so I think that has put some people off trying the 5:2 version. A lot of us also needed to lose more than could be lost in 8 weeks. I found I bobbed up and down around the same weight when I 5:2d with 800 cals - so maintenance like you say.

My eating habits have changed a lot since I tried 5:2 before so now I am finding the 500 cal version is giving me a slow but sufficient loss.

I think the issue there is NFDs, rather than FDs:
after the BSD, some people still don't know how to eat "normally" i.e. within TDEE. Hence they'll have problems losing on 5;2, or retaining the BSD loss

Yes that's true....I retrospectively entered my cals today and at first I thought it was around 1500 but it was actually 1900. I still haven't nailed the 3 meals a day thing either.

FD for me today, last week’s ill health was some sort of virus with flu like symptoms (fever and chills) but no D&V for me (my kids ALWAYS end up puking no matter what illness they have, they are tiny vomit machines, very grim!) so I feel I can certainly manage fasting again this week though am considering 3 mini 800-1000 day fasts as we are still struggling sleep wise at home and that gives me more wriggle room if I feel like I need the calories to keep myself functioning. I will see how today goes anyway. So far I’ve just had a cup of tea with almond milk at home then a large Americano coffee with a dash of skimmed milk and some cinnamon powder so I could pretend it was something fancier on the way in to work! I’ve also had a cup of Bovril as I had a cracking headache yesterday and whilst I’m not sure what caused it I want to avoid a repeat today. Lunch is some chopped raw veggies and 20g of wafer thin ham so I’m at 170 calories for today according to MFP (I intend to have more tea with almond milk later so have calculated for that already) I know I should be fully planned ahead but I haven’t finalised my dinner plans yet, I will probably have a couple of eggs scrambled with loads of mushrooms and spinach as we’ve got masses of mushrooms in the fridge that need using up. I’m feeling pretty positive about being on track this week though, I’m not currently hungry and I’m chugging away at my water with the intention of actually eating my lunch as late as possible.

I hope everyone had a good weekend and has a good day fasting or not.

Fast day today for me.

B: Two coffees with milk. Question - would I be better avoiding this, or having cream?
L: crab salad
D: Dal with added crayfish, wild garlic (picked today) and kalettes.

(The dal I use is Soul Tadka Dal from Ocado. It's got a good flavour and hasn't got anything artificial in it. It's 216 calories for the whole packets.)

You both sound very lositive on your FD, Flesh, Borrowed
You've almost nailed this FD, just a little longer.
I recommend a glass of water, then clean your teeth to avoid any temptation to nibble - it really helps !
Why not have an early night, to maximise fasting benefits and to pamper your bod

The important thing with milk is to include it in your 500 calories
I recommend unsweetened almond milk, if you are ok with nuts - only about 14 cals per 100 ml.
Also, before the FD, measure out & calorie count milk - & sugar if you have it - for the entire day, then put them into 2 little pots; when it's gone, that's your lot for the day

"lositive" ? Positive !

I have unsweetened almond milk in tea but am not keen in coffee so happy to allow some extra calories for dairy in that (or just go without) I'm going to keep trying it with almond though as I don't really think dairy is that great for me anyway. I ended up closing the kitchen on 631 yesterday and went to bed early. This morning I had a slice of soya and linseed bread toasted because the little darlings woke me at 5am and honestly I didn't think I'd manage my morning commute without some carbs that was at about 6:30am so still a 12 hour overnight fast, that's pretty normal for me whether I breakfast or not as unless we're out somewhere I try not to eat after 7pm as it affects my sleep. I'm going to try to stick to my target weight TDEE today.

Morning all.
Checking in after FD #1.(672cals) Still under the 12s so happy in that. Life's a bit hectic atm.
Just did fasted training session and had nice PT to drag me along for an hour she is evil but so toned. She's going to write me up a few W/O to follow.

Quick question, in regard to a borrowed comment. If my target tdee is 1600 (50 & 5"6 11st) I should stick to this on a nfd? I have less than that now at 12 stone....
Am I being dull??

Morning all.

FD yesterday, after a fun and somewhat indulgent weekend it was tough. Probably 600cal.

Just about to do a group fight session, high intensity cardio.

Well done to everyone on their Monday fasts.

Interesting about the 800cal theory. I am very active and quite often have to do at least 650cals and find it makes no difference. I lose very slowly anyway - 0.5-1lb per week usually. I suspect my fun weekends are responsible!

Checking in with a little SV of 500gr in a week. Did you know that there are 800 calories in 6 rounded teaspoon of Nutella?
FD today.

Notreallyhappy my understanding is that at least once a week you should be trying to eat to target TDEE to retrain yourself to the calorie amounts that your body needs. For me I also find that if I eat at target TDEE or a bit lower a couple of days a week it means I can have a day or even two where I'm more relaxed (have some desert or bigger meals) and I'm still well in a calorie deficit for the week so will continue to lose.

Notreally For those wanting to lose a few stone, there can be quite a difference between current and goal TDEE.
Having one or more NFDs per week at goal TDEE is a trick we learned, as borrowed has said, which both helps you get used to how you will eat at your goal weight (when you will be smaller) and it also boosts loss slightly.

However, for sustainability and to boost BMR, try to have at least one NFD per week on which you eat your full TDEE.

Note: the NFDs are primarily maintenance / relaxing days, so if you feel hungry on any NFD, then eat your full TDEE

Muck

confused For many folk, how quickly they lose depends more on NFDs - which are supposed to be maintenance days, around TDEE.
if you have slow loss and very indulgent weekends, then you are eating back some / most of the FD deficit.
For those who already have slow loss due to this, it's probably best not to further reduce the weekly calorie deficit by eating more on FDs too.

For those who lose pretty quickly, why not try 800 FDs, if you want to go a bit more gently.

Yes BC I'm certain I eat back some of my calories on weekends - but I do tend to have at least 2 NFDs way under TDEE.

I think that if I had to do away with my fun weekends I'm not sure any WOE would be sustainable for me. I'll settle for a slow loss but with less of of falling off the wagon. I'm in the last stone now so slow loss is better than none!

It's a WOL, not a race

Confused that's good weightloss if its happening every week and you can see things moving in the right direction especially if you are still able to socialise etc in the process.

Had a hangry fast day yesterday, ate quite sensibly though and was rewarded with a scale victory - the scale jumped down over 1lb to a new lowest weight! This is the lightest I have been in probably close to 15 years.