5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

link fail, plus I meant 'also like' not 'so like'!

Okay, so with my difficulties in energy management I am finding it very hard not to respond to habitual hunger cues. Like walking in the bloody kitchen!

So for now I am concentrating on not snacking in the evening, and leaving breakfast until I actually feel hungry. That will have to do this week.

I did my consecutive fast days
I actually only just saw your advice bigchoc about 650 being ok so I did them at 500! Really pleased with myself tbh!
9st7 today so same as last week but I had a woeful weekend so I'm pleased not to have gained. Now got to focus on healthy eating and TDEE for the rest of the week, especially the weekend.

building2017 your plan for the week sounds fab. I am a big believer in not setting yourself up to fail and aiming to do what you realistically think you can.

yumyum i want to lose a further 8lb (I've never been under 9st as an adult!) so I sympathise with the last few pounds being the hardest to shift!

Good idea Building to concentrate on getting the snacks etc sorted first.

Sonya I do feel a bit daft as am 38 now and haven't been under 9 stone since I was about 21! I am 5ft 4 and planning to get back to exercise after a week off.

Hi all just catching up on everything here. A nice few losses and realisations going about. Well done everyone.
I'm looking at the veg challenge. I even got a (reduced) spiralizer to help.
No scheduled fd here this week, major tummy upset Sunday - Monday . Am now on food reintroduction. Light nutrient rich foods today.
All have a good one. X

yumyum, sonyaya, I'm also 5'4'' and aiming to get back to under 9st. I also haven't been that light since I started uni and I'm now almost 40. I gained the 'fresher 15' and never got it all back off. I' expectations been fluctuating between 9st 2 and 9st 7 for about 6 months! That's with combining 5:2 and low carb. Exercise is the only thing which might make a difference now.

Thanks for the kettlebell recommendations, bigchoc and yumyum.

That should say 'I've been fluctuating'- no idea how the random expectations got there!

Oh how I would love to be 9st something! I dream of getting into the 10s...

Not really. I don't have an elfin build, think more stocky boxer (muscles and all).

FD here, much better than Sunday. Coming in around 510cal after the most humungous bowl of quorn chunky chilli (quorn pieces, a mountain of veg and half a can of pinto beans).

I'm off to bed soon for my traditional FD early night. DH gets back from Spain tonight - I've had 3 days alone with DD and DDog. It'll be nice to see him, and even nicer to leave the childcare up to him for a few days! Not DDog though - he's a real mummy's boy and I love it

How have other fasters done today?

FD went well today. Had a larger lunch I and then something smaller for dinner. I will go to bed early tonight though as I didn't have a great night's sleep last night.

Also managed to do some kettlebell exercises while DD was having a nap. Feel really good for it.

Well done on your FD, confused.

Well done on your FDs, confused, Boldly, Sonya

Sorry to hear about your stomach upset / bug, notreally
Very sensible plan: no fasting for at least a week and light nutririous meals until then
Drink lots of water and avoid irritating a sensitive stomach - no very spicy food, no alcohol or fruit juice and no more than 2 portions fruit daily.

That's fine, building I recommend you concentrate on developing good habits:

• No snacking - eat proper meals, with any "treats" as part of a meal
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines and drink lots of water
• Keep sugary treats and junk food within sensible amounts
• Have 2 days per week where you only have nutritious meals, without any sugary treats or alcohol

• preparation for the 2 FDs later

Placemark

Have most people upped their activities too? I'm trying to lose 2 stone and for the last month been on the 5:2, making healthy choices in my five eating days and walking the dog at a fast pace for 5 miles a day plus school and nursery runs. I've barely lost anything. My average step count per day is 20000-25000 so not too shabby

Sorry to hear that, Fourkids
People lose at different rates, but - unless you are already within healthy BMI - after a month most folk would have lost at least 4lb. Some will have lost a lot more.

Is your "barely anything" below 4 lb ?

Conditions like PCOS, thyroid or menopause can slow loss right down.
So can certain meds like ADs.
So, if any of those apply to you, then your progress will be slow, but persistence can get you to goal.

Let's analyse how we can boost your progress:

Exercise is important for health but it is what you eat & drink that determines your weight loss, unless you are a real gym rat or equivalent.
Sometimes prolonged low intensity cardio - e.g. walking, jogging, swimming - can even prevent weight loss, because this type of exercise notoriously increases appetite by much more than the calories burned.

1. FDs

• Should be free from alcohol and junk, especially sweet treats
• Do NOT allow for any exercise calories. Even if you burn 1000 cals at the gym, on 5;2 you only eat 500 on an FD (600 for men)

2. NFDs Most people can lose weight on 5:2 while eating "normally" on NFDs However, the idea of 5:2 is that the NFDs are "maintenance" days, i.e. they average around TDEE Some folk need to retrain their "normal" eating to maintain, so they don't eat back the FD deficit and also as preparation for maintenance after they reach goal. You can overeat even healthy food.

Recommendations:

• Calculate approximate calories your body burns each NFD: TDEE Calc
  For this calc, set activity level as "moderately active" if you do 20-25k steps every day or "lightly" if it is 5 days

• Mfp for a full week
  This will give a reality check on NFD portion size and highlight any hidden calorie bombs
  Do NOT subtract any exercise calories, because TDEE activity level accounts for this.

• Keep within nhs daily alcohol guidelines on all NFDs (dry FDs)

• Cut out snacks between meals.
  If you have any "treats" including alcohol, do so only as part of an NFD meal, not on their own

Morning. 1.25lb down after Wednesday's FD. I've now lost about 6lb since before going on holiday and feeling much, much better already.
Didn't have a great day yesterday - worked 3-10pm and it's killer shift, so I snaffled some jelly babies to get me through.
Today all bets are off, Pizza Express for lunch (DD birthday treat) and takeaway curry and beer for dinner (rugby!). Hopefully some exercise before the damage is done.

Anyone attempting a Friday fast?

Well done on your SV, confused
I'll do my usual Saturday FD

We have had a house full of sick people this week which has included me so I haven’t fasted. I’ve also not used it as an excuse to over-eat but the thought of fasting on minimal broken sleep whilst feeling pre-menstrual and under the weather didn’t appeal at all. I intend to stick to TDEE over the weekend and try fully shift this thing then be feeling well enough on Monday to do a fast. I'm 5lbs from my first mini-target and really wanted to have hit it by the end of this month, I need to keep reminding myself of that on my fast days when I suddenly feel like I don't want to do it.

Sounds horrendous, Borrowed
Don't fast until you feel ready - fasting when weak is a really bad idea
Have a healthy TLC weekend, no booze, no junk, just light nutritious meals, plenty of water and sleep

btw, if that was a stomach bug, D & V, wait a week, because the gut needs to recuperate after that before it can tolerate fasting

Evening all, just checking in after a long time on an FD. Bit over what I hoped for after colliding with some peanut butter (ahem), but nothing too drastic. Managed a yoga class too.

Fourkids if you're feeling a bit frustrated by the effect of your exercise, I'd suggest trying to do your brisk walks within 15 minutes of finishing a meal. That's when it will have the most impact on blunting your blood sugar and insulin response, and as a result on fat gain or loss.
I did a 15 min brisk walk after at least 2 meals a day when I had gestational diabetes, as I was managing it without meds. Coupled with low GI meals, I lost 1.5kg in my last trimester (the hospital was not impressed - they wanted me to only maintain, not lose). And that was my only exercise and despite having snacks in between every meal (which I now know as so bad for my pancreas!).
I still do it now, 2.5 yrs after the pregnancy and even try and time my carbier meals for just before a workout.

So far so good on not snacking in the evenings and late breakfast (and aiming for lots of fruit and veg). I honestly have done this for approx three days and have suddenly lost about 2.5 lb and am lowest weight since August. Strange.

Well done on your SV, building and your new habits NSV
Cutting out snacking, especially in the evening can make a lot of difference and with a delayed breakfast you are probably having a daily 12-14 hr fast, which also helps insulin metabolism.

I'm FDing today. Any other Saturday fasters ?

I'll stay home until 3pm for all my Amazon Subscribe & Save items, plus a couple of other packages, then I'll cycle to the gym for lifts and "rock" spin (an hour spinning to rock music, it's great fun )

Spin class is killer bigchoc! Hope you enjoyed rock music one sounds fun. How is it spinning on a fd?

Hope everyone else is having a good weekend.

AND weights

I'm used to fasting, Yumyum (I'm a longtime maintainer)
So I have no problem exercising intensely for 90 mins

In fact, intense exercise like HIIT or heavy lifting is best at burning bodyfat. Hence feels energising - if you are fit, of course.
I glug down a high-caffeine drink 10 mins before I start, to help mobilise fat stores for fuel.

On FDs, it's usually best to avoid prolonged medium intensity cardio, e.g. elliptic trainers, swimming or running long distances.
This is because your body probably uses mainly carbs to fuel longer cardio, but your FD glycogen stores are low and it is tougher to use bodyfat for fuel. So, you may feel weak, tiredand / or hungry.

If you find exercise tough on an FD, or you are just starting to exercise fasted, then I suggest a low intensity walk for 30-60 mins, a low stress activity to relax physically & mentally.
No longer and not too fast / or uphill / or carrying a heavy bag. This is to keep low intensity and avoid getting into the medium intensity cardio range

Has anyone seen in the press that Dr Mosley now thinks you can eat 800 on fast days and get similar results? What do we all think?