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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 10/02/2017 06:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2017 07:55

Mootime Do not fast until you fell 100% again - your body needs to be fully recovered after a serious illness and an op.
Don't go low carb yet either, because that adds physical stress at first and can affect modd too

First priority is to help your body recover fully
So, go for healthy maintenance to rebuild strength & stamina

  • NO snacks ever.
  • No junk - cut out sugary junk - sweets, biscuits, cake etc - and savoury junk - crisps, pizza, deep fried food
  • Drink lots of water and cut down alcohol to nhs daily limits, with at least 2 dry days
  • Eat masses of different veg, but no more than 2 portions fruit
  • Boost beans, lentils & peas, also plain Greek yoghurt.
  • Have moderate portions, of starches, no more than 80-100g cooked weight at any meal. Quinoa, bulgur wheat, steelcut oats - porridge with berries & nuts is a nourishing breakfast to build you up Bread, rice: aim for wholegrain, brown / red Potatoes: no mash or fries, have boiled or baked instead Reduce the insulin impact of potato & pasta by cooking & refrigerating before reheating or eating cold
  • Exercise: a short daily walk is sufficent - cardio & HIIT may actually slow down your recovery As you feel better, add in 20 mins of lifting 3 x weekly, NOT HIIT / aerobic.

Give yourself at least 4 weeks to fully rebuild your health Flowers before your consider fasting or low carb.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/03/2017 07:59

confused Easing in with 700 cal FDs is ok, but do be careful on NFDs - I recommend a week mfp, to check where youare with those.

Minny I also recommend just this week that you also weigh for mfp, just to check your estimates of size & content (e.g. how much dip / oil / creamy sauce)

OP posts:
confusedandemployed · 06/03/2017 08:23

Thanks BC. I use MFP religiously, I'm a bit of a stats junkie!

mootime · 06/03/2017 22:03

Thanks Bigchoc.
A busy weekend has wiped me out and I realise I really need to take it slowly or I'm going to go backwards.
I'll do as you say and then gradually get back into it once I'm back to 100%.
I'd not realised how much this would take it out of me.

minnymoobear · 06/03/2017 22:08

Is Monday nearly over already?

fD today but hardly drank any water :(

BigChoc, I'm kitchenless at the moment and bring fed by various friends and family so difficult to measure portions or know exactly what's going in!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 07:59

That's sensible, moo Flowers I hope you are soon fighting fit

Minny This horrible state of being kitchenless shall pass Grin
For now, just develop good habits - no snacking, keep within nhs alcohol levels, daily walk - and accept loss may be slow or even aim for healthy maintenance.

Once your lovely new kitchen is finished - mine have never taken longer than a week ! - you can go into turbodrive if you wish.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 08:00

Drink lots of water, on FDs and NFDs, Minny Glug down a glass now

OP posts:
yumyumpoppycat · 07/03/2017 08:15

Well done for getting back on track with your fast day minny, it always feels really good when that happens.

Moo take your time getting better, your body has been through a lot Flowers

I did ok yest only a fraction over and weight down a little today, am losing 0.5 - 1lb a week I think. I am back in the 135s now, 1 more lb and I will be back to pre Christmas BSD lowest, I partly wish I had stopped BSD and started 5:2 over Christmas rather than take a total holiday for practically 2 months! Although tbh on one level I prefer losing to maintaining Hmm My chocolate shanigans continue as I keep forgetting I am trying not to eat it, but we are talking really small amounts. The 10 a day fruit and veg challenge is really helping me to eat better on NFDs too, although the effort to fit them in prob means I eat a bit more than I need to.

Prob thu fast for me this week.

sonyaya · 07/03/2017 08:36

Morning everyone!

Well done on your FD minny and yumyum - yumyum I know the feeling with chocolate! I tried I give it up for lent and lasted 3 days! Confused

Today I am attempting something bold - a consecutive fast day! Fasted yesterday, but can't do tomorrow (PT session) or Thursday (out for dinner) so am going to try to manage it today as well. If I really can't then I'll try to stick to 800 and do another 800 on Friday, but I'm feeling positive!

muckology · 07/03/2017 10:35

Hello everyone,
It works! (of course it does) Checking in after 12 days, have lost 1.8kg (3.96 lbs), 18% of the total weight I want to lose. Very happy with the lighter feeling, this came within 2/3 days, mainly water loss I think, but still v. nice.

Today is a NFD so more of a challenge. I will be relying on Meal Planner and MFP - thanks BigChoc for the useful links - to reach and stay within my TDEE. I will. I really have trouble not turning NFD into either FD or SID (Sod It Day), but now understand this is where I need to put the work.

Good luck Sonyaya with your fast today and to everyone else in their efforts - we know why we do it.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 18:51

Well done on your SV, yumyum
I consider the 10 a day to be another gimmick. Go for a minimum of 5 and aim for 7 is more sustainable, imo. Have some of your veg raw, without dip or dressing, to avoid excess calories.

There was a study that compared those who ate 8 portions of veg & pruit per day to those who only ate 1-2 portions:
They found no difference in rates of cancer or heart disease - once they had allowed for smoking and income levels
Mass population surveys are often distorted because people who have one healthy habit tend to have several, ditto for risky behaviours. Also income level is sadly a great influence on longevity & health.

The overwhelmingly important factors for health we can control:

  1. No smoking - by far the #1
  2. Don't drink to excess - keep within nhs daily limits

What we can't control:

  1. Genetics - e.g. account for up to 70% of cancers
  2. The wealth / income level into which you are born & raised.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 18:56

Congrats on your SV and progress with good NFD habits, muckology

Sonya 800 would be fine for the 2nd FD of a b2b - we say 650 each FD for those.
I recommend you don't try to cram in another one this week, or it becomes too much.
Just keep the NFDs sensible. Maybe make Friday a no booze, no junk healthy NFD

OP posts:
yumyumpoppycat · 07/03/2017 19:06

Very interesting re the 10 a day Bigchoc thanks, quite a few of us on the thread on chat have said 8 feels ok but 10 feels excessive. It's been a worthwhile experiment to show me I need to add more veg in, It has been interesting to see on MFP that I easily get to 35g of fiber doing 10 a day but I think I will relax a bit on it now.

Good news from scales minny!

How was you back to back sonyaya?

yumyumpoppycat · 07/03/2017 19:19

sorry mixed up names, well done on sv muck.

hollygolipo · 07/03/2017 19:39

Long time lurker and 5:2 faster here - I've been doing 5:2 for over a year now and have slowly but steadily lost 4 stone with 1 more to go. I do consecutive days (Monday and Tuesday) and have got pretty used to it, though by this point on a Tuesday I just want to go to bed and get it over with. But I am so so bored of barenaked noodles and soup - can anyone point me towards some great menu ideas that are big on flavour but will still help me keep to my daily limit? Thank you in advance!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 21:27

Welcome Holly Smile and congratulations on your brilliant SV
These FD recipe links are under the OP "How to Start":
BBC Good Food 52<a class="break-all" href="http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/52%20BBC%20Good%20Food%2052%5D%5D%20,%20%5B%5Bthebloodsugardiet.com/recipes-by-diet-type/low-carb/%20Mosely%20LowCarb%5D" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know<a class="break-all" href="http://www.goodtoknow.co.uk/recipes/538311/5-2-diet-meal-plans-what-to-eat-for-500-calorie-fast-days%20Good2Know%5D%5D%20,%20%5B%5Bwww.52recipes.co.uk/tag/vegetarian/%20Vegetarian%5D" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> , Vegetarian , Foodie Under 200 Cals

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/03/2017 21:32

Personally, my usual FD menu is a chunk of salmon, or occasionally steak, or a can of tuna (in water, not oil) plus a huge mixed salad with umpteen different raw salad veg.
Dressed just with lemon & balsamic vinegar

OP posts:
hollygolipo · 07/03/2017 21:35

👋waves - thank you! 5:2 is the only thing that's ever worked for me ... these links are fab, thanks so much and here's to keeping it going...

confusedandemployed · 08/03/2017 06:28

Well done on the SVs muck and holly. 4 stone is incredible! You must feel so proud.

Going to attempt FD#2 today. I would like to get it over with, but FD#1 wasn't great. NFDs have gone well though, about 500 and 300 cals under TDEE and I haven't felt deprived. Big weekend coming up so I need that wiggle room!

Good luck other Wednesday fasters.

yumyumpoppycat · 08/03/2017 07:04

4 stone in a year is amazing Holly! Hope you find a few new recipes you like, my dish of the moment is a bit of a cheat, bung some salsa on a skinless chicken breast, add extra veg like peppers and onions and roast in the oven, extra tinned beans can be added too, and depending on cals in everything else a little grating of cheese on top, maybe some corriander. You could easily add a bit more spice. Frying onions in a non stick pan with the salsa before adding to the chicken makes it taste nicer .

Hope your FD goes well confused.

Can I ask what a normal increase on the scale for a weigh in after a non FD is ...if there is such a thing!

minnymoobear · 08/03/2017 07:41

Wow Holly!! Brill result- well done you!!

Thanks BigChoc - seemed to have developed a resistance to water in the last week and def not drinking enough so will try harder from today!
NFD went mainly well yesterday and included a piece of bday cake after lunch - fave colleagues birthday and wanted some so had it - but it wasn't all that so hopefully next time I'll say no thanks :)

Have been very good with cutting out my evil evening junk food snacks - tend to fall asleep instead which is a good thing :)

NFD today and have stir fry with me for lunch at work.

Kitchen is mainly built but gonna take another4 weeks to get everything in - slowest builders in the world!

boldlygoingsomewhere · 08/03/2017 08:01

Well done, Holly. That is amazing weight loss!

FD for me today. Not sure if I will split the calories across 2 meals. I'm looking at starting some weight/resistance training too. I have a kettlebell and would like to start using it! Anybody know of any good routines on YouTube?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2017 08:31

yumyum Some folk find they gain up to a lb or so on the NFD after an FD - undigested food, eater retention after lots of carbs - but a few people report a small loss.

Daily weighing suits many folk, but it does show up all the temporary blips.
So, to monitor progress, view the weekly trend on the morning after FD2.
Over a period of 3 weeks, this should be downwards, because the loss normally exceeds any blip.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2017 08:38

Kettlebells are great fun and excellent exercise, boldly

The 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 has a kettlebells section near the end of the OP and a link to videos: Kettle

Lots of info, links & science in the OP for anyone thinking of boosting exercise
Or post there about yourself if you would like suggestions for a plan

OP posts:
yumyumpoppycat · 08/03/2017 09:19

Minny well done - cutting the evil evening junk has been the most important change for me...good plan re water I need to hop onto that plan too.

Thanks bigchoc, I am firmly in the 1lb up group. weird for this morning as I was under tdee (maybe it was all the veg ;) ) but hey ho overall things are shifting in the right direction it will prob just be slow as I am on the infamous final 10lbs. Like you say I should prob just make a note of the df2 weigh in.

Boldly - Big chocs op in the exercise thread is really really worth a read, I so like this dvd too [[www.amazon.co.uk/d/ft7/Ultimate-Kettlebell-Workouts-for-Beginners-DVD/B00ARJM22S/ref=sr_1_3?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1488963835&sr=1-3&keywords=paul+katami&tag=mumsnetforum-21 kettlebell]

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