5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done yumyum! I think 560 is a good day

I managed my FD yesterday but was really struggling. I couldn't sleep because I was so starving. Please someone tells me it gets easier

minimoo let me know how you get on with the 3 x 800 days - it might be something that is more sustainable for me in the long term!

Hi all.
Just checking in to say my first month of 5:2 hasnt been too bad at all. It turns out I find not eating easier than portion control! Fast day yesterday and 525 calories exactly :)

I weighted myself this morning and was a bit :O that I have only lost about 3 lbs in the last month ( stone and a half to lose) BUT my clothes are all looser and my stomach definitely less pregnant looking. Think imminent period not helping too. Ive stepped up exercise and weights so I think although my weight hasnt gone down my % body fat has dropped. Im thinking I might skip weighing myself for a few weeks and carry on 5:2 (or 4:3 ing) as its a bit disheartening to not see the weight dropping off despite sticking to the rules most of the time.
well done to everyone on the thread! Its good to know there are others out there doing the same thing when my willpower is waning.

Well done on your FDs, Overtired, Minny, Sonya

Sonya you might find it easier to do the 3 x 800-1000 days, M+W+F;
several folk have found it gets them used to fasting, so they can then move to 5:2 with 500 cal days

Minny These 3 days are still fasting, not just low cal days.
So on those days you should not have any sweet treats, desserts, alcohol etc
Otherwise, your progress may slow and also you won't have the full benefits of helping insulin metabolism and other hormonal or inflammation issue.

Well done on your SV, Namechanging
The average longterm rate is 1lb weekly, with most folk losing a bit more the first couple of weeks.
Don't worry about the rate of loss, but if you want to boost progress, then it sounds like you need to tackle NFDs.

It is a common problem in our obesogenic society that constantly pushes food at us:
many folk who have been overweight for some years have got used to regularly eating more than their body can burn - hence the weight gain.

I recommend keeping to 5:2, not 4:3, because you need to nail NFDs - "maintenance" TDEE days - or you'll soon regain / yoyo.
Learning the habit of naturally eating within TDEE is the key to weight management
Mfp can help to train you, or can be a useful reality check, if you try it for one full week.

The system of 3 x 800-1000 days also doesn't work well if you overeat on the other 4 days.

Evening.
Checking in after weekend jolly.
Hi all and well done on sv & nsv going on.
2nd day back on BSD /16:8. 800cals yesterday & 707 today. It seems to suit that if I don't eat until lunch I don't miss food. Just don't flick the eating switch.

Well done, notreally I agree about the "switch" !
I find my most reliable FD system is just water & tea all day until a light healthy dinner
Of course, if you are doing daily 800 BSD, you need 2-3 meals for it to be sustainable, but the 5:2 BSD is fine with just supper, if that works for you.

Namechanging- I'm less bothered so much with the numbers on the scale and more about the NSVs too, so great that your clothes are feeling looser, well done you!

Notreally- agree! Still working on training myself to not eat when not hungry- had first food at 11ish yesterday, then 3ish and then 8ish.

Thanks again BigChoc - so should deserts/sweet stuff be out completely on NFDs?
Thought it was 3 meals, no snacks (which I'm working on, said no bday cake at work yesterday!) but other than than eat what you normally do and stay in TDEE?

I'm definitely eating healthier and a LOT less than pre 5:2- tdee is 1882 but aiming for under 1600 daily and using MFP.

Not weighed or measured myself yet, but can feel a slight difference to my rolls of back fat already! Have a top that I want to wear on Mothers Day so using that as my gauge.

NFD today and an event at work with lunch, so will choose wisely and avoid desert!!

Minny It's only on FDs or miniFDs (under 1000 cals) that you should cut out alcohol, sweets, cake, biscuits, dessers, crisps and other junk.
It's ok to have them on NFDs, as part of a meal - no snacking, but you'll progress more quickly if you keep to moderate amounts

Well done on your healthier eating NSV, also your clothes & body NSV, Minny Sounds like you have burned some bodyfat

Hi everyone, dropped off the thread for a bit but am back. V encouraging to read about everyone's progress.

I am on my second FD of the week - am just having a cup of bovril which is really quite satisfying. Am going to try not to eat again til tonight's dinner - salmon and a truckload of veg.

I weighed myself yesterday morning and was another 2 lbs down, making me 4 lbs down in total after three weeks. Pleased with that especially as I've had quite a few meals out

I’ve lurked on these threads for ages but never joined in until now. I have lost on 5:2 before including around this time last year but I had some poor health later in the year and slipped back into bad habits and my weight crept back up to almost where I had started when attempting to shift the baby weight. I thought I’d start posting to see if having some accountability by talking about what I’m eating and how it’s going would encourage me to stick to it a bit better.

I am still breastfeeding my youngest but they are a toddler and eat regular meals but still feed a fair bit at night so I’m still pretty exhausted from that but not sure it justifies the 1000 calories allowed on FDs for a breastfeeding woman. I try to stay under 750 on my FD at the moment and as long as I don’t completely over do my NFD I do lose and am down 10lbs since starting this again in January, I probably have another 10-14lbs to go. I think it’s just a struggle when I have a really bad night with the toddler not to perk myself up with sugar even though I absolutely know it’s a very temporary lift. I am also really trying to get into eating at my GW TDEE at least once a week and to eat at my sedentary TDEE for most NFD which is 1648. I walk a lot and still feeding probably does boost my TDEE a bit but that’s not going to be forever so I know I need to adapt my eating now so it doesn’t all creep on again when I stop breastfeeding.

I guess it is just the difficulty of getting into the mindset that this is a way of life and going back to eating more than I need will see my weight creeping up again. I’m terrible once that eat now switch is flicked and can just eat and eat. I have managed to pretty much completely curb any snacking (there have been alcohol related exceptions) and only eat my main meals. I have been struggling to manage fast days the last couple of weeks when I’ve been really tired.

Anyway…I had a FD yesterday and ended on 686 and my plan for today will have me at 1614. I have eating out plans tomorrow so my next FD will be on Friday. I think the real thing control wise is to make sure that knowing I’m eating out tomorrow doesn’t lead to me deciding to write the entire day off and just eat whatever I fancy.

Thanks to for the clarification Big Choc - that's what I'm working to. Better eating with no snacks on NFDs. Managed it today at a work event with big lunch and deserts - I had a small lunch and no desert- I'll get there slowly!

Borrowed - im new to 5:2 myself and agree that the mindset stuff is the hardest! It's fighting against what's been instinctive for so long and learning how to make better choices - like saying no to seconds, choosing smaller portions, not eating for the sake of it and in my case, stopping the mindless fatty junk snacking!!

Not easy but I've found my fitness pal is helping me this time. Used it before and never stuck to it properly - helps to plan out the day incance when you can.
I knew i would be having a work lunch today so had banana for brekkie, enjoyed a decent lunch which was way less than I would have had 2 weeks ago and won't eat anything until my stir fry dinner.

All learning and I'll definitely slip up, but can get straight backnon to it - for me thinking about this as a way of eating for life has really helped.

I HATE fast days. I'm ok for most of the morning and afternoon but come 4pm when I'm giving my baby his dinner...argh!

Hatemylifenow hang in there! Not long now.. .

I was planning my 2nd FD for tomorrow but was feeling pretty good so did it today instead. Did a very hard fasted cardio session this morning, walked dog, minded my friend's DC (emergency dentist appt, ouch!) then made the planned NFD dinner of mushroom risotto - without oil I found It was fine for a FD as I always try to save my calories for one decent meal in the evening. I wouldn't normally go carb heavy on a FD but actually it's fine. It was very tasty and soon I'm off to bed with a coffee and my Kindle!

Minny I definitely need MFP to keep me on the straight and narrow. Without it I seem to develop some sort of food dementia, I never remember what I put in my mouth!

Congrats on your SV, MyLife

That's a good positive attitude, Minny
All of us maintaining successfully have been where you are: learning a bit more week by week, training ourselves in better habits and if things don't go to plan, just moving on and nailing it the next time or the time after that.
Lots of little steps to get to where we want, no hurry, we can get there

Welcome, borrowed and well done on your SV, good progress
750 cals sounds sensible for your stage of BF and if you've quite a bit to lose, one NFD at goal weight TDEE is always a good tactic.

Tiredness hammers normal discipline, makes us all vulnerable to grabbing junk.
However, keep reminding yourself that sugar / junky carbs is only a temporary lift; the crash afterwards makes you feel worse and then you get into a cravings spiral

Instead, maybe keep the makings of a v quick light meal handy in the fridge,
e.g. boiled eggs, wholegrain sliced bread, pnut butter, hummus, raw carrots, celery, cherry tomatoes ....
Or even batch cook and portion light meals in the freezer, whixh you just MW for a few mins

Sounds like you know your 5:2 WOE and you are absolutely right to think longterm and not look for a quick temporary fix
Keep posting, especially if you feel a binge coming on, grab for MN, not for the junk.

When you get near goal, make a definite maintenance plan - e.g. 6:1 and weekly weighing - which will be your permanent WOL.

FD for me today - last ate at 5:30pm so heading for almost 19 hours of fasting. Will have some lunch soon - just vegetable soup- and an omelette later this evening.

Hope other Thursday casters are doing ok.

That should be fasters of course!

FD today for me as well. Am claiming a mini mindset victory for yesterday as I misjudged what time I would be home from work to prepare dinner. I very nearly ordered a takeaway but instead bought a cooked chicken from M&S at the station and we had that with salad.

I'm working afternoons in London at the moment. It's a gorgeous day and I have a lovely walk from the station to work so I'm going to enjoy the view with a cup of tea and keep to that. Ready meals in fridge for DH and me and something already prepated for DS.

Have a good day everyone

NFD here and work 3-10pm so hopefully I'll be too busy to notice the vending machines winking at me .

Hope Thursday fasters going well xx

Was intending to have my second FD of the week today but am totally exhausted, as in could shut my eyes and sleep standing up, so decided I might be better with a mini fast instead.

malmsey good nsv on the takeaway chicken. There's always something that's quicker than a takeout.
A few good days here b2b Monday & Tuesday on BSD / 16.8 principles under tdee yesterday & will be today. had lots of vegetables and limited carbs.
If your fasting today it's not long till dinner or bed.x

malmsey

Great work on the chicken! Sensible diet choices like that really make a difference over time!

Well done on a good few days notreallyhappy!

overtired - good call on the mini fast. Sometimes you have to listen to what your body is telling you.

I'm on my second FD of the week this week and finding it much easier than my earlier one for some reason. Can't wait to get to bed though!

Lots of good choices made by pp and good NSVs
Well done Malmsey, boldly, notreally

Not long to go, so stay focused on healthy choices Sonya, overtired, confused

overtired Can you plan an early night ?

Overtired defo a good decision to have a mini fast, I hate that kind of tiredness but if you take the cue to have a rest you can often stop it turning into something worse.

Sonyaya its weird how some fast days are so much easier than others.

Sigh, I am a little over again. I am trying to do the 10 a day challenge and managed about 7 so I am pretty happy with that and it was veg apart from 40g of frozen blueberries. I had a NSV in that I planned to cook bf and skip lunch, but wasn't hungry so just hard boiled some eggs and chopped some veg and took it to work instead.