5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks Bigchoc. NFD are almost trickier than fd in a way but it was nice to have lots of cals to play with. I have to say I have looked at a couple of the science links and been totally lost so your clear explanations are really helpful.

BigChoc very impressive and inspirational reading how you got there with 5:2 and how the progress is ongoing. You just completely disprove the view that the menopause/ageing means we should just accept being tubby and supine, and suffer in your own body.

I've watched read/quite a lot about the benefits of fasting over the past few years since it has become a mainstream subject, but as yumyumpop says your clear, practical and supportive explanations make things click into place - a really big thank you for this thread and the comprehensive info in the OP.

Hello, can I join you please?

I'm a bit fat, am officially in the overweight category now and am utterly sick of looking and feeling crap. I exercise a few times a week, doing classes at the gym, but definitely need a bit of a boost when it comes to my diet. I eat a lot of... well everything! My fault entirely as I'm a terrible grazer. I'm a SAHP so there's ample opportunity for grazing!

In an ideal world I would lose three stone eventually, but that would take me to the very bottom of healthy bmi range and I have only ever been that light once in my life - it didn't last very long, so possibly it's a little unrealistic.

I am planning to do 5:2 to begin with, maybe incorporating 16:8 on non fast days later. I am planning to fast on Mondays and Wednesdays, which is also the days I do cardio classes at the gym. Hoping I'll feel a little lighter on my feet after a fast day..? Either that or I'll feel dreadful and keel over! Will see.

Welcome Rockaby! Ive only just started too so very much getting my head round everything - this thread is def the best place for support and questions.

Had a NfD today and only had 2 meals - crunchy nut for brekkie - what a waste of calories!! Logged it in MFP and thought thats practically a fast day! Had around 40grams with semi skimmed milk - wont be havinf them again any time too soon!
Overall a good food day - had a couple of biscuits at a friends house and even some cake and custard but stayed in my TDEE and logged eveything in MFP - hence the eyes being opened to how much calories Ive wasted by mindless eating of rubbish! Am eating smaller portions than this time last week and also saying no more

Cooked up some chicken and veg stir fry and some roast veg with chicken while at hers so have some health food over next few days.
Family evwnt tomorrow with food, so will eat smaller portions and drink more water ready for fast day on monday and thursday

Well done, Minny You are examining your food habits and developing your WOL
No snacking is a very important habit, to help stay within TDEE longterm for maintenance
You can always have a couple of biscuits as NFDs pud

You are absolutely right that sweet cereals are basically pudding for breakfast, not much nutrient value fir a lot of calories.

Breakfast ideas:

• Porridge with cinammon (cinammon may help regulate blood sugar) and berries / apple / banana / (but not compote)

• avoid instant porridge. You can MW whole oats / flakes in 2 mins.
• try unsweetened almond milk instead of cows milk - under 20 cals per 100m

+ Full fat PLAIN Greek yoghurt with berries & almond flakes, or seeds. + Eggs - boiled / veg omelette / scrambled + Bacon, tomato & mushroom on wholegrain toast + Peanut butter (thinly aoread) on wholegrain toast + Chia pudding = seeds with water, yoghurt, vanilla & conammon

Note for any meal: much better to eat fruit than drinking fruit juice. Most smoothies are also too sugary and not very filling.

Welcome, Rockaby
Why not set healthy BMI as your first goal and then move to a weight where you feel fit & healthy.

I recommend you do not arbitrarily aim for the very bottom of the bmi range:
your goal should be what suits your individual body, fitness not fashion.

Once within healthy BMI, I recommend you go by waist rather than weight:
First goal is waist below half your height, e.g. 32" if you are 5'4"
Measure at the narrowest point, which is usually a couple of inches aove the navel.

Hi all, long time lurker, occasional poster here. Have 5:2 on and off since the original to prog. I have some success but always manage to fall off the wagon and regain. I know it works but for some reason I always sabotage myself. Like some kind of self hating circle.

Have been reading about blood sugar diet too and have decided to give dieting another shot as I am worried about diabetes.

I am not massive, but need to lose a stone to be comfortable. I find FD easy actually but then over eat on NFD

My question is what is the best way to kick start myself and gain the most motivation from a decent weight loss quickly as I think that will help to keep me going? 16:8 or 5:2 or bsd? Any views/experience/advice appreciated.

TIA

Hi Wheel You need to change your mindset before you can change your body.

Accept intellectually & emotionally: weight that took years to gain can't come off in a few weeks.
There is no magic quick fix, that will lose all that fat permanently and then let you resume your old way of eating.

The only way is persistence and changing habits permanently so you don't regain.

Therefore, NFDS are as important as FDs, because they are training you how to eat within TDEE for the rest of your life.
That is a positive advantage of 5:2, that you learn maintenance from the beginning, on the NFDs.
If you can't eat within TDEE, which is what your body actually burns, then you will regain as soon as you stop whatever diet you are on, whether it be 5:2 / WW / low carb / whatever.

• 16:8 only loses weight if you have a daily deficit those days.
  There may be a slight boost from eating the same calories in a shorter time period, but it is not significant.

• BSD is a VLCD, therefore very tough to do, quick loss but only for shortterm use, not a WOE
  I wouldn't recommend this if you can't handle NFDs - you'd probbaly put it straight back on and more in compensation

My recommendation
5:2, with daily mfp to train yourself how to eat for maintenance on NFDs
mfp often boosts loss, because the most common cause of slow loss is over-eating on NFDs
mfp is a reality check, to help identify calorie bombs and adjust portion size of meals.

With these habits to keep for maintenance:

• Important - No snacking between meals
• Cut down on sugary crap & junk
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines daily, incl at least 2 days dry.

Most folk lose more in the first 2 weeks, but afterwards with only a stone to lose, you would settle down to 1 lb weekly
This is a safe steady rate which mounts up if you stick to it

Hi rockaby!

Good luck with your FDs this week! I am no expert but just to give you my experience that cardio classes can make you more hungry so may in that way make your FD harder. I also find it very hard to exercise effectively in the evening if I haven't eaten all day. Everyone is different, just something to consider!

I agree with Sonya that newbies may feel weak with FD cardio, including running.
Lifting would be easier, maybe HIIT after a few weeks
Ideally, move the FDs to your training restdays until you have adapted to fasting.

Thanks for the reply. I know what you say is right I just seem to have some sort of disconnect from my brain and my desire to eat 😬.

Ridiculous as I work in a job that requires shed loads of self control and discipline. Will give 5:2 another bash but be more diligent withMFP.

Tx

Thanks bigchoc and sonya.

That's interesting re cardio on FDs. I'll maybe make FDs Tuesday and Thursday this week instead in that case, or maybe change my classes for another day.

Going in for week 2 with a FD tomorrow. Unlike last week, I'm working from home this week so keeping busy and restricting my access to food will be harder. Telling you all here that I'm giving it a go in the hope of making myself accountable and more likely to stick to it!

Good luck to everyone else on FDs tomorrow!

Thanks as always BigChoc! Did really well today and came in under TDEE. Food was made by carerers so guessed the serving and info for MFP - went up rather than down!
TDee is 1882 but trying to stick to 1600 on NFDs to allow for any calorie discrepancies - not weighing food so guesttimating!
No snacks today 😇.....right up intil ten mins ago when hubby offered me his last little bite of cadburys boost and i said yes!! Luckily had 80 calories left so went with it!

FD tomorrow,
Sauted Mushrooms for brekkie - i think!
miso soup for lunch and
Chick. Stir fry for dinner
Must remember to drink water!!

Morning all and good luck to the Monday fasters

Keep working on the no snacking, minny - maybe train your OH too
Good luck with your 5:2 at home week, Sonya and with your training, Rockaby

Thanks BCF and well remembered!

I'm taking your advice BCF and sonya and making today a NFD. So far, so good. Normally I have a biccie with my coffee in the morning but am trying to cut out snacks, resisted. About to have some muesli with grated apple. Have a healthy, low carb lunch planned too and something light a few houra before gym class.

Hope everyone has nice days .

So this morning is day 7 and I am 1lb lighter than this time last week. Quite hard to shift the BSD mentality as at one point last week I was 3lbs down and feel like I want to protect the full loss! Putting on my logical head I know a lot of the 3lbs loss was just the difference in the weight of 500 cals of food in my tummy compared to nearly 2000.

I didn't do that well at Not Snacking I am afraid, I might try and give up chocolate until easter as that would help. Then 2:5 for chocolate maybe after easter.

On a similar note what do people think about the 10 portions of fruit and veg a day? I experimented on MFP and it probably would be possible in theory on a fast day but wouldn't allow for any real fasting. I might try for it on non fast days though. There was an interesting link about portions of fruit and veg on the 10 a day thread www.nhs.uk/Livewell/5ADAY/Documents/Downloads/5ADAY_portion_guide.pdf

I am working from home today and also FD, so far I have had black tea, black lungo from my nespresso machine (actually very nice) and a hot water. I am a bit worried about my teeth which are pretty yellow anyway as I have been having tea since I was 2 years old!

Onawheel would 2 weeks of proper BSD then transitioning to 5:2 with 500 cal fasts might be an option? Sometimes the challenge of trying something new helps with getting started, if you have done 5:2 before then following the BSD just in the short term might help?

Have a good fast day minny, sonya and everyone else fasting today, and enjoy your gym class rockaby.

Hi All

Catching up with your progress over the last week - it's sounding good everyone, well done! And a big welcome to newcomers - this thread is soooo helpful!

It's the start of my 4th 5:2 week.....so today is my 7th FD. This week I am having a second FD on Wednesday but will make more effort on the NFDs to stay within TDEE. I think I managed it this week (possibly only just on a couple of days...) but I defo had to really make an effort with my dinner last night to stick within the target. No bad thing.....am reading lots about changing one's habits and I am really try to be more mindful of any wasted calories etc.

Did my weigh-in this morning and am one more lb down from last week. Total of 5lbs since I started which is not too bad. It's not a massive drop over 3 weeks but I am defo making changes (thinking more...) and feel positive that I can keep this up. Am preparing myself for a possible plateau but hoping I can keep going as defo still have more to lose still. Some more sensible choices on NFDs - less "extras" really - and I should still make progress.

Am hoping for some small NSVs soon - getting into some jeans that I haven't managed for quite some time for example!

Anyway.....keep going everyone - happy FD Monday!

Good luck to everyone fasting today and well done for all of you showing a loss for efforts last week.
I have a small NSV- my skirt which was starting to feel a little tight around the waistband is feeling looser again. Cut my bread down to just lunchtime at the weekend and think it has helped massively with the bloating.

FD is tomorrow - haven't decided on 2nd yet, poss Friday or Sat.

Morning all. I have lurked for several weeks now, thinking myself back into the zone. Tried and failed to get back on it several times but I think...finally...I'm getting there.

On Saturday I came back from a week all inclusive in Lanzarote, 2lb lighter. I know how I did it, it's just a question of transposing it to everyday living. I ate a reasonable, high protein breakfast, continued to exercise hard (while DD was in kids club I went to the excellent gym). Neither DD not I wanted much lunch so we shared a ham or chicken sandwich, then had a reasonable dinner comprised of a small portion of carbs, a variety of meat / veggie dishes and lots and lots of salad. I bought a small pack of salted corn kernels which lasted all week and I had a handful with a few drinks in the evening.

How can I carry on this disinterest in snacking?! That is always my downfall. I think I'll start by giving up chocolate for Lent - good idea and thanks to the PP who suggested it.

Anyway I did my first FD yesterday, came in way under 500cal and another lb gone this morning after a hard cardio class this morning. Determined to see it through this time. I have 7lb to lose til I'm back to my lowest since starting 5:2 nearly 2 years ago but I'd like to lose a further stone this time. We'll see..

Congrats on your SVs, Yumyum, Sequins, confused
and on your skirt NSV, boldly

confused and anyone else who has problems snacking:

• Snacking keeps insulin raised throughout the day, which hinders fat-burning, increases hunger and increases total calories. Snacking on sweet crap is even worse - it sets off cravings spirals Snacking is the way to gain bodyfat
• On NFDs, decide in advance what "treat(s)" you will allow yourself and plan them as part of a meal
• Don't eat on impulse. Eat at mealtimes only. Get in the mindset that food - and drink that has calories - are only for mealtimes.
• Are you eating enough proper food, i.e. not junk, at meals ? If so, you shouldn't feel hungry for another 4 hrs at least. Boost veg and protein - especially fish & eggs -in your meals Don't panic and eat at the first sign you are peckish - WAIT. You won't collapse in the hour before your next meal.

Don't panic and eat at the first sign you are peckish - WAIT. You won't collapse in the hour before your next meal. Bigchoc I might need to print this off and stick it on my fridge! . One thing that has been a big success for me from BSD is no eating after dinner, so not sure why I struggle the rest of the time.

Did ok today in terms of what I ate (lots of veg and chicken) and no snacking but I did go over a bit prob about 560 cals all in. Hope everyone else had a good day.

Well done on holiday SV confused

Thanks yum yum, the BSD book arrived today so I might give it a go and then switch back to 5:2 but use MFP to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Fingers crossed

Morning fastest!
Had a FD yesterday and Big have taken your advice and doing 800-1000 FDs 3 times a week.
Did 90 yesterday - had a desert which I didn't really need to so need to watch that kind of eating and say no!!

Today's is a NFD and aiming to stay under TDEE at 1600 cals.
Today's meals logged in MFP so will stick to what I've got in there and no extra snacking or deserts!!

Great FD yesterday, found myself not really thinking about food and wasn't particularly hungry come dinner time, which came in around 450.

Was going to NFD today but am at paediatrician at 11.30 today for DD and a lot of sitting around at hospital, then working from home so I will not get chance to eat until at least after lunch today so may mini fast?