5:2 Thread No. 67: You were born to be awesome, not perfect. There's no giant leap to get the shape YOU choose, just many little steps. It's ok if you step slowly, you lap everyone who didn't start

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done all the Thu fasters, second fast day here too, I think I came in under 500 after going back over MFP and tweaking things a tiny bit

I did a little better on no snacking but work still to do on that skill.
BF black espresso before bit of a half hearted workout
Mid morning, couple of teas with splash of milk and sugar free gum
4.00 post school fridge raiding children cracked me...smoked salmon, 1 minstrel and small homemade cappuchino
6.00 chicken breast baked in salsa with roasted veg.

Hey gang

NFD day today

Oatsosimple for brekkie with semi skimmed milk

Chicken and mushroom pie for lunch (only 250 calories - thought it would be a lot more!)

Gorgeous stir fry with noodles with salmon for dinner

And NO SNACKS 😇

Have MFP'd and am only at 1057 calories for the day. Tdee is 1888, so not sure if this is too little.

FD 2 tomorrow and aiming for 500 calories tomorrow

BigChoc, think its easier for me to know I have a couple of days with planned 500 cal than try 3 days at 1000 cals - think id be more likely to snack if I have more calories to play with. 500 is tight so no choice but to stick with it.

Might have porridge and lunch tomorrow on FD with miso soup for dinner if needed. Would that still be classed as a fast as long as 500 calories??

BigChoc I had feta and avocado salad for lunch & pesto salmon with veg and lentils for tea. I assume that I should stop eating at 8 and not eat again normally till the next morning, or till 12 noon next day if I do back to back fasts? Realistically how beneficial will this approach be, assuming I eat well the rest of the time (which I am trying to do anyway)? I know it won't be as effective as doing 5:2 but hope it will help to get my metabolism moving and lower the insulin resistance etc that comes with PCOS?

Sounds delic, OldBoots

On 5:2, there are only 2 "diet days" per week, since the FDs provide concentrated fasting.
Many 5:2ers combine it with 16:8 on some or all NFDs too, to keep around TDEE.

However, for 16:8 on its own to be effective in helping hormonal conditions, it is usually needs to be daily .
i.e. each day only consume calories within the 8-hr window, which in your case is 12-8pm

If in addition, you wish to lose weight, you would need a weekly calorie deficit, which is obtained by cutting out the smallest meal - breakfast - and not compensating during the 8 hrs

minnie On NFDs, eat if hungry, stop when satisfied.
Don't worry if some NFDs are quite a bit lower than TDEE, like today
If you don't feel hungry, it usually means you are burning more bodyfat for fuel - enjoy these intervals while they last, because they usually boost fat loss.
On other days you might feel hungrier, or have a social event, so it may even out.

Minnie Porridge & miso soup are very healthy, absolutely fine on FDs.
I'd suggest adding maybe a green salad with lemon juice or balsamic vinegar, just to get some veg in.

The only real rules I would make about FDs are no alcohol and no junk food, especially sugary "treats"
With a strong recommendation to include non-starchy veg, because you get so much nutrient bang for your calorie buck and it is quite dilling.

Bleurgh. NFD today after two FDs back to back. Really savoured my food today which has made me realise how much I've just been mindlessly gorging before without genuinely enjoying it.

However....I woke up just with the dreaded 'stomach crampy feeling' and now am shitting through the eye of a needle have the runs.

Is this a usual side effect? If not then I guess my chicken katsu wrap from a food stall at lunch was not as good as it tasted

Well done, Yumyum "No snacking" is a daily work in progress;
some of our bad habits can take a while to change - my choc frenzies certainly did !
Once you've cracked it - and can cut out snacks completely on FDs and NFDs - you'll feel the benefit.
A new habit usually takes a month before it feels natural.

With snacking though, we have to remain vigilant even in maintenance, because we are in an environment where this bad habit for health & weight is "normal"
(and sooo profitable for Big Food, who invented snacking for this very purpose)

Stumbly It may be a dodgy food stall

However, some folk get the runs if they break their fast too indulgently.
e.g. fast all day and then have their 500 cals all at once, especially if the meal is oily / spicy / acidic
or - maybe your case -
after an FD or b2b, eat too much the next day - again oily / spicy / acidic

After a b2b especially,

• I'd recommend breaking the fast with a light "gentle" breakfast with protein and some carbs, but not much fat
• no fruit or juice
• no sugary cereal or junk like muffins etc
• Then have 2-3 sensible meals during the rest of the day - and avoid alcohol & juice.

The following day you can eat & drink normally - don't make it an FD or a miniFD.

May I join in? I have just done my first FD today! Gosh it's hard, especially in the evening, however this is surely, surely, going to get easier. One stone to go.
Thanks BigChoc for a most excellent thread.

Welcome muckology!

It definitely does get easier!

I'm on week 3.... weighing myself tomorrow.
I'm actually attemping 4:3 this week (MWF) after an issue with a donner kebab on tuesday night which took me way over my TDEE.

muckology i find the secret on a fast day is to keep busy during the day ( my house has never been cleaner), to cook something you dont actually like for children for dinner ( so sausages or pasta for me) and to get an early night with a bath/ bit of pampering beforehand. I tend to fast all day then save all my calories for the evening meal ( and if enough left an options belgian hot cholate for 40 calories before bed).

good luck. It gets easier the more you do

BigChoc you are truly awesome!! Thank you - youre definitely helping me to stick to this and see it as a WOL rather than a faddy diet.

Welcome Muckology - youre right, it is a most excellent thread 😍

Im on Wk1 FD2 today and feeling good about it! Not feeling hungry yet so may leave my porridge for while until i do feel hungry.
Need to up my water - aways rubbiah with water intake when at home !

Have a fab fasting friday all !

Stumbly probably a coincidence and not to that extreme but my tmi visit this morning wasn't exactly er ...solid

Thanks Big choc from me too, if I achieve nothing else than giving up snacking that will be something that should be a lifelong habit.

Muck it defo gets easier.

Namechanging good tip re kids dinner

Hope fast goes well Minnie

I am 3lbs down on sum morning however this is yoyo weight so not excited yet waiting for some fresh fat to disperse

Had a really good second FD yesterday and carefully tracked all week but still a pound up this morning?!

Morning. Welcome to everyone at the beginning of their 5:2 journey. I'm 3 weeks in and it's getting easier. Completed my second FD of the week yesterday and it went really well. I'm now weighing myself on a Friday and I am very happy to have lost another 3lbs since last Sunday/Monday bringing me to a total of 7lbs in 3 weeks .

Thank you Dowager minnymoo yumyumpop Malmsey

namechangingagainagain I love 'issue with a donner kebab on Tuesday night" - so evocative! and thanks for the tips!

Can anyone tell me of their experience with ADF? Simpler to do ADF, rather than have 3 days on the loose and then start again? I find not eating a lot easier than stopping eating once I have began. After FD yesterday, I am a little weary of eating normally today, and the day after, etc. and then not get ahold of myself to do another FD again. Maybe the short term structure of ADF is more manageable for me. Has anyone found ADF works better for them and how sustainable is it?

Poking my nose back in. I lost well on 5:2 about a year ago, but prolonged work stress over the summer/autumn and then a f-it attitude come winter means I put over a stone back on again. Tried restarting 5:2 a few weeks ago but then had flu, folllowed by a chest infection, so it's back on hold for now. But am determined to try again once I'm better! This thread really does help to keep motivated and as a reminder about how well 5:2 works. Well done to all

Sorry you have had a tough time Jen. Its the perfect time for getting back into it lots of us seem to be on week 1.

Muck I know exactly what you mean.I am going to trust the process for a couple of weeks and then if needed add in a mini fast day of 1000 cals. So mon 500, tue TDEE, Wed 500, Thu TDEE, Fri 1000 MFD, Sat & Sun TDEE. This is the advice BigChoc gave earlier in the thread. If you want to feel more in control you can use MFP and monitor your cals on NFD to keep maybe slightly under tdee most non fast days.

I am confused though my numbers are not adding up on MFP. According to that I can only have 1100 a day over the next 3 days to achieve 3500 weekly defecit and this is with it set to maintenance cals 1800. I have done the maths myself though and that comes out at slightly over 1500 a day which is a relief and what I am going for. not that I am obsessed or anything

Welcome, Muckology and well done on your 1st FD
Most people adapt to fasting after 2-3 weeks

ADF is fine if your eating & drinking are under control
Where is goes badly wrong is when people turn to it because they can't stick to TDEE - a fast / binge cycle is unhealthy, doesn't lose well and then leaves you totally lost for maintenance.

However, TDEE us only an average on the 5 NFDs, so you can "cycle" calories e.g. you could keep within TDEE-400 on 3 weekday NFDs, so you have an extra 1200 cals for the weekend

NFDs are good training for learning to naturally eat within TDEE, which is important for maintenance.
Longterm, if you keep eating more than your body can burn you will continue to gain throughout your life.

If you have a lot to lose, you will need to get used to a smaller TDEE as you lose weight and become smaller
Eating to TDEE of goal weight at least once per week is a good way to ease into this and also boost loss.

Sorry that's hear you've been ill, jengles
Best to concentrate on regaining full health before you try fasting again - it can be too stressful for the body if you are unwell.

I suggest you prepare for 5:2 by relearning healthy habits and healthy TLC maintenance:

• Start the day with a glass of water and keep glugging
• No snacking between meals
• Cut down on sugary crap & junk
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines daily and keep at least 2 days dry.
• Eat fish some days instead of meat. Boost veg, beans, lentils & peas, plain yoghurt. Have eggs sometimes for breakfast.
• Take a short daily walk outside when the weather is ok
• Plan your time to get plenty of sleep - and cut out all electronic gadgets in the hour before bed

Yumyum I suggest you just use mfp to track cals, so that you stay within TDEE / 1000 / 500
In your case, that means 4 days TDEE, Friday 1000 and the 2 FD
You should gradually find you are learning to eat within TDEE, so that you won't need mfp for ever.

I advise against aiming for an average below your 1800 TDEE on those 4 NFDs or you may feel too deprived.

Everyone on 5:2 or any variant should have more maintenance days than "diet days" each week.

The key to weight loss is a sustainable longterm WOL until you reach goal, then you ease into a maintenance plan.

overtired Remind yourself that weight can naturally vary 2-3 lb per week, due to undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water from excess carbs or even more gain at totm.
That can easily disguise a typical 1lb loss
Also, some folk do seem to lose in fits & starts, rather than linearly
So, look at the trend over a 3 week period - that should be downwards.

Hello BigChocFrenzy thank you so much
Sticking to TDEE for several NFDs in a row is exactly where I go wrong and why I was thinking of doing AFD.
Thanks to your message I now see that learning to stay within TDEE on NFDs is a goal in itself and a major part of the process.
I'll keep in mind the calories credit that might remain available from NFD, but at the moment I wouldn't trust myself with extra calories as this could descend very quickly into carbs chaos!
The NFD on TDEE of goal weight as part of this process is also rather clever, I will try that.
Years of over indulging + peri menopause have been catching up with me to the tune of 12 extra kg (1.9 stone) in 2 years, I knew that, but somehow what really vexed me and spurs me on right now is a photograph I happened across.
Today I managed to stay bellow TDEE without too much effort because it's early days and I am in the Zone, long may it last.
How did you come to 5:2 BigChoc?

Muckology I'm a STEM PhD (not in this field) but I am used to evaluating scientific research.
In 2013, in my late 50s, I decided to research online about healthy aging

Leading researchers were advocating IF (intermittent fasting) to reduce the risk of dementia, Parkinson's, CVD, T2 etc and I was very impressed by their peer-reviewed articles - many links at the bottom of the OP
They were also explaining the IF benefits of hormesis and resilience at any age

I also discovered that some innovative trainers & weightlifters had brilliant results using IF to optimise body composition.
I'm a keen lifter and 5:2 with 16:8 has helped to continually improve my lifting performance, even at age 60.

I'm a lifelong exerciser, but post-meno I was right at the maximum of healthy BMI and conventional diets weren't working.

I found, like many other women, that 5:2 still works at this life stage when other diets don't.
5:2 often improves insulin metabolism and trims the waist, so I regained my abs.

Now, like several other maintainers, I continue 5:2 for what I consider are the benefits for health & fitness.