5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Afternoon
NSV to report my scout trousers which fitted in August at camp were too big on Sunday at our remberence parade I had to safety pin them to my shirt.

Just checking in, first FD of the week. Had a sensible weekend, staying within happy weight TDEE, with a good bit of exercise done. I actually ended up having a mini FD on Sunday. Thanks so much for the advice Daisie & Fivetoate (love the new name by the way ) 4:3 really appeals to me I have to say, but I know I do need to tackle my NFDs bad habits, but it is something every so often I will try to do (before occasions where I'm trying to squeeze into a dress!!)

Anyway have a good fast day everyone, this is a busy day for me so no time to think about food (thankfully) Cecilede hope your feeling better [Flowers] he's a twat to let you go and you'll probably be so much better off without him

Oh and well done Lady great feeling when the clothes start to feel loose [Wink]

I'm back. 17 days of feeling under the weather. I was getting so pissed off with being unwell, but not really ill enough to take to my bed. But not well enought to do a FD.

Finally almost back to normal, did a FD yesterday with not too much difficulty, but felt really cold at times.

Delighted to say that having taken BigChoc's advice I did not comfort eat and managed to only gain a pound. Without the support on here I would have eaten myself better ordinarily!

I'm hoping to have a good few weeks in the run up to Christmas. Stay well everybody!

FD done and kitchen closed. 478 cals, I'll keep my 20 in case I fancy a hot decaf milky drink before bed. Hope everyone else got through their FD ok too, spin & gym for breakfast in the morning, will be well ready for my poached egg & mushrooms after. Welcome back CQ hope your well over your sickness now

Welcome to all the new posters. You've certainly come to the right place!

I'm fasting today - had a big meal at 2pm and won't eat again until tomorrow afternoon sometime.

As regular readers may remember, for the past several months, I've been trying to give up - or severely cut down on - alcohol, sugar and snacking in the evening, using the 2:5 method.

I'm now down to 1 pint of stout and a small glass on wine on one day a week, and I only have a late night snack on Saturdays. But sugar has been a far harder nut to crack. I have cut out all snacking between meals, and only eating any treats after lunch or dinner. Once I start, however, despite all the tips I've learned over the past 4+ years, I'm not always able to stop.

The lead up to Xmas I find particularly difficult; Lidl have now introduced their Xmas fare, which includes several vegan treats including chocolate covered marzipan, chocolate liqueurs, marzipan fruits and Turkish delight. In previous years I've gone to town on these, reasoning that, since they're not available year-round, I should fill my boots, as it were. This year I've been more circumspect, but I still have all these goodies to hand, albeit in smaller quantities.

However, this still didn't square with my stated aim of giving up sugar.

Finally, last Saturday, I thought, right, time to take drastic(ish) action. I bundled up all my goodies in a plastic bag and threw them on top of a tall kitchen cupboard*. All I've had since then has been 2 squares of dark chocolate (I find it easy to stop after one square) - one on Sunday and one yesterday. Since I'm fasting, no chocolate for me today.

Although it's only been three days, I really feel that a corner has been turned.

(Does this remind anyone of a Frog and Toad tale? )

WWW and everyone else thanks. I think I have the secret to weight loss, everyone, just get your heart broken. Sorry for complaining. I just haven't felt hungry, it is bizarre.

Congrats on your NSV, LadyC We always like to hear a Trousers Falling Down NSV

Good to hear you are fighting fit again, CQ and well done on keeping good habits & basically maintaining during your layoff.

BreadandWine Do you have vegan friends who are a bit hard up ?
You could split up your sugary loot among them - ask them to save you from yourself - so they'll feel they are doing a good deed

You need to give yourself some TLC, (({Cecile }))
Drink lots of water and make sure you manage at least 1 or 2 simple meals per day. Comfort food like stews, chunky soup are good.

Exercise helps work off stress and I found it helped me with a bereavement.
If you belong to a gym, I recommend a spin class or Zumba, because music & company can lift mood. Also lifting weights and punching the crap out of a punchbag.
Otherwise, go out for a run, or do pressups, squats, lunges etc at home, or download the free Shred

Well done on a good FD, WhiteWinter and well done all the other Tuesday fasters

Morning all 2nd fast day of the week today. Then the dreaded weigh in tomorrow!!! I don't know why I'm dreading it but I feel that I couldn't tell you how this week has been going I've tried to eat ' normally' I eat three meals a day & have given up snacks ( I don't actually want them) & I haven't stress binged since I started 2 weeks ago.
Good luck everyone whose fasting today let's make it a good one 🍀😊🍀😊

Thanks everyone. I'm following your advice with lots of soup and water and tea, and a gentle jog just now. Good luck Wednesday fasters.

Sounds like you have made really good progress with healthier eating habits, HollowLew
That should help reach your goals, so relax about the individual weigh-in: it's the trend over a few weeks that counts.

2nd FD yesterday- I usually do Thursday but very pleased they're over and done with for the week. Am about a stone lighter now altogether- had a sudden drop yesterday which was probably dehydration!

Also an inch down on waist! It works, it really does!

Happy fasting today for all who are!

Well done on your stone SV and waist NSV, FiveTwo Excellent progress.
Drinking more water can often boost fat loss.
So, I recommend everyone starts each day with a glass of water and keeps glugging through the day.

2nd FD here. Yesterday's nfd was a struggle, gave into a few treats but I'm on it today. Well done fiveto that's fantastic going, and great inspiration for us i have difficulty keeping up my water intake too and can feel it in the morning when I get up, mouth feels so dry. Right I'm off for a loong walk to keep myself away from food.

Good luck, WhiteWinter and gulp down some water right now !

Hello all, can I join?

I'm having huge issues losing weight, mainly because I'm overeating on NFD. On fast days I typically eat nothing at all, but I have a dreadful tendency to completely binge on NFD. So not eating 2 days a week is just holding me steady!

I currently weigh 10st at 5 ft 5, trying to lose a stone in time for my wedding in September next year. I have been at 10 stone for about 4 months!! Trying to kick myself into higher gear by adding an additional fast day but this is hard to fit around seeing friends/going out.

However one positive thing is that I have been doing HIIT just once a week from the beginning of this year, with dramatic health benefits. My resting heartrate has dropped by 15 bpm and my blood pressure has gone from around 130/79 to 115/69. So very pleased with that.

Welcome, Alyosha
Well done on starting HIT and improving your fitness.

Your NFD issue:

• Part of the trouble may be that you don't eat anything on the FDs, so your body is too desperate for nutrients the next day.
  I strongly recommend eating the full 500 cals, as a protein & veg FD supper, e.g. a cheese and veg omelette.
  This will also help retain all your muscle, which is important for health & later weight maintenance
  If you are worried about stimulating appetite, then don't have bread, fruit or other carbs on FDs.

• Keep to nhs alcohol guidelines: booze increases the tendency to nibble and make bad choices

• NO SNACKS between meals. Snacks keep insulin raised, so you are always ready to eat.
  . Start with 3-4 emals eor day, NO snacks between, even "healthy" fruit & veg snacks.
  If you want "treats" or alcohol, have them as part of a meal

• Bingeing is almost always on junk carbs, so I recommend you try to go low GI:
  . Cut out sugary / carby junk (crisps, sweets, cake, biscuits, choc) or have it only 2 NFDs per week & only sensible portions.
  . Cut out fruit juice & dried fruit and keep ordinary fruit to 1-2 portions per day
  . Boost protein & veg
  . Boost beans, peas, lentils
  . Have moderate ! portions of carbs (about 100g cooked weight total ler meal) preferably baked / boiled potatoes (not mash or deep-fried), brown rice, wholegrain bread & pasta, quinoa, oats (not instant)
  . Have plain Greek yoghurt, not the low fat or flavoured.

I recommend 5:2 for most folk (rather than 4:3) because it is gentler & more sustainable, which is what counts longterm.
3 FDs + 4 NFDs feels more like a restrictive "diet" than 2 FDs + 5 NFDs.
I suggest keeping 4:3 in reserve as a short-term plateau-buster, if need be.

Thanks BigChocFrenzy (great name!).

Very good advice, I do think you're right about eating the 500 cals. I find it harder but actually think it stops me binging on the following days.

I'm going to make a concerted effort to stop carb binging, I go all out on huge packets of crisps, massive sandwiches etc. Will try to switch to a nice Sushi pack.

TBH don't really eat between meals, my real downfall is weekends when I have no "off" switch. I eat (so embarrassing to admit!) sometimes 8 slices of toast in a row!! I just need to remind myself that I'm satisfied after just 2. Gah.

That's very useful you don't snack much
I think you'd have an off switch for emals if you had say several hardboiled eggs and veggy sticks to continue eating, but not the toast - bread is incredibly moreish for most of us !

Keep starchy carb portion within 100g total per meal, which is maximum 2 slices bread. It also cuts down on the accompanying butter, cheese etc

Try stews with meat / poultry / fish and a lentils or bean side, which is filling but lower GI than bread or potatoes.

Good news, another 2kg off since last weigh in two weeks ago. Total so far is 12kg. I haven't been this weight in over 10 years though I've been close a few times . Very pleased.

I'm on my second FD of the week and doing fine today, dinner in an hour and then an early night I think.

I've got a busy weekend with fundraising events so moved my FD to day. Kitchen closed at 493.
Well done on all the SV, and welcome to the newbies.

Kitchen closed here too 507, teeth brushed and ready for bed (after I've watched in a celebrity!) hopefully tomorrow's nfd will be a good one too. Great work fiveto hi Alyosha welcome aboard, I have the exact same problem on nfds, maybe we can keep each other from self sabotage on nfds. Thanks bigchoc for that advice again really need to remind myself of this every now and again. Oh and breadandwine hope your managing your sweet tooth better (and have found somewhere to hide the loot arrragh - trying to sound like a pirate there!!!) night fasters

Congrats on your SV, Five2 Lowest weight in 10 years - wonderful milestone !

Well done too on your FD today, Five2, LadyC, WinterWitch