5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks everyone I would usually start to get complacent at this point and 'stop dieting' and put the weight back on. Feels different this time with 5:2 as I don't feel like I'm 'on a diet' which is really weird when you consider eating very low calorie for a few days of the week. I actually look forward to the FDs which again seems a bit weird. Really enjoying this woe and ready for the next phase. Well done to all today's fasters and good luck to those fasting tomorrow.

Between meals on NFDs, I find it helpful to keep repeating the mantra, "I'm in the zone!' - and try and delay the first meal of the day as long as poss. If you can manage them as 16:8s, you not only do your body some good, but you can spread your TDEE calories over two meals instead of three!

Thanks, WWW. I even went one day this week without any chocolate at all!

Pirates? Did anyone mention pirates? Click on my name if you'd like to see particularly fierce one!

Great to see how well everyone is doing with both SV and NSV.

I had my second FD of the week yesterday but on the scales there's been no movement. Three weeks in a row now - I think I've hit a plateau. I've started to Shred, will track my NFDS on MFP and plan to do 4:3 for a week. Any other ideas on how I can move things along?

Another odd thing is that my period has vanished this month - I have never in my life missed a period or been more than a day or two late (except for when I was pregnant of course). Could this be 5:2 related? Has anyone else experienced this?

Well done on your weight loss Five2ate

You are doing really well White

I did a mini FD yesterday. TOTM but only have gained 200g which is a LOT less than what I usually gain at this time.

I am trying to mix up FD, 5:3, 4:3 mini FD so I don't reach a plateau

Sounds like you are doing everything correctly Polpette 4:3 will start to shift the scales again. 5:2 hasn't affected my periods at all.

Well done Five2!

WhiteWinter - that would be super useful. Yesterday even after all the great advice from BigChocFrenzy I went out for dinner with a friend, ate a pizza, at the crusts of her pizza then had dessert...! Carb overload. Now not eating today until this evening when I have my anniversary meal with fiance.

This weekend I'm going for a nice walk with pub lunch with my fiance, planning on having porridge for breakfast and then a nice big lunch with no dinner or just a snack in the evening.

I will try and repeat BreadandWine's mantra!!

Also trying to weigh myself every day even though it is super depressing. It definitely helps to keep me on track!

Polpette mfp for NFDs is definitely a good idea: many folk can lose the first bit of weight - the "easy" fat - even when exceeding TDEE quite a bit on NFDs.
They then find they need to train themselves to eat within TDEE to progress significantly.

Also, check the amount of sugary carbs and that your alcohol is within nhs recommendations:
both high alcohol and high sugar stop fat-burning for several hours at a time and tend to increase fat storage around the waist.

However, if you've already lost a fair bit of weight, then a plateau is quite common for a few weeks, to let your body consolidate and rebalance, before it is ready to shed more fat.
4:3 is useful to bust a persistent plateau.

Fasting can sometimes stop periods, especially if you are doing 4:3 or ADF

• it's a sign that the amount of fasting may be a bit too much stress for your body; so it dials back non-essential functions, the first if which is fertility. However, a totally different effect: fasting within comfortable limits for your individual body can resolve issues of insulin metabolism that have been hindering fertility and a few 5:2ers have become unexpectedly pregnant ....

Daisies Most women gain at totm, due to retained water, then release all this water weight - any maybe a bit extra - the first FD after totm.
If you are sts, that suggests your overall trend is continuing to be good.

Alyosha I recommend boosting protein, to avoid your carb overload.
Eggs are excellent for breakfast; they keep you full comfortably until lunch.
If you prefer porridge, then I recommend some flaked almonds and cinammon on top, more satiating.

Fish is an especially good protein, for lunch or supper. Also boost beans, lentils, peas.
Try a sensible portion of starchy carbs, but have lots of veg.

Rather than an afternoon "snack" I recommend a small meal - more filling & more nutrients, less likely to waken cravings e.g. chunky chicken & veg soup (avoid bread for a small meal) / veg omelette / chicken salad / prawn stirfry ....

Once again thank you for the detailed and useful advice Bigchoc it's hugely appreciated. I rarely drink so I think I must be under estimating how much I'm eating on a NFD and I do hit the bread and odd sugary carb - will have to focus more.

Very much hoping I don't fall into the 'unexpectedly pregnant' category!

Daisies good luck at avoiding the plateau, seems like we have similar strategies - in previous diets the plateau is the point I usually want to give up whereas with this I feel more motivated oddly enough.

I second that bigchoc and often wonder what your 'story' is with regards to 5:2 but am too lazy to go through the old threads.

Five2 Like several of the older longterm maintainers here, I started 5:2 for the health benefits and also to shift some post-meno lb.
I was nudging BMI 25, but muscular - I'm a lifelong exerciser, currently lifting & HIIT. So, I didn't have a huge amount to lose, but I was alarmed that no diet (standard CR, low carb, veggie... ) was affecting the inexorable gain over 10 years.
Then I found 5:2.
I have maintained Happy Weight with 5:2 since spring 2014 and I feel fighting fit, aged 60.

I'm a STEM PhD and the science behind intermittent fasting is very exciting:
It's been successfully used by weighlifters & bodybuilders for several years, but is now advocated by world-leading scientists investigating healthy aging and how to reduce the risk of serious conditions like dementia, CVD & T2.

I was encouraged a lot by the earliest 5:2ers here, like TalkinPeace, BreadandWine, Betsy.
These have always been supportive & kind threads

That's really interesting BigChoc. I'd love to know what you think about the report in the news this week that women who have been long term yo-yo dieters may be at higher risk of cardiovascular problems. I found it quite depressing, because this is my history for about the last 30 years. I was lamenting this today with my lovely DH who firmly said, then this must be the LAST time you lose the weight.

He's so right. And today's FD felt good. This will be the last time I am this heavy.

But the good news is that today for the first time I can remember, I did a full press-up!! All the way down, all the way back up. A great NSV

Well, it's only been one week, now - and I'm astonished!

In that time I've had 4 squares of dark chocolate and several pieces of a homemade fruit soda bread - eaten as part of dinner.

My mouth no longer tells me it wants something sweet after a meal - it just doesn't! My desire for sweet stuff has gone is getting easier every day.

This afternoon I made this 'cake in a mug' for my grandson - and I wasn't tempted in the slightest.

So does it take just 7 days to ween oneself off sugar? I'm only a study of one, of course, but it does look very hopeful.

Thinking about it, what I was doing previously was a bit like a cigarette smoker trying to give up by smoking less - it just doesn't work. Every time you have another cigarette, you're reinforcing the nicotine addiction. Every time you have a biscuit/sweet/etc, you're reinforcing the sugar addiction.

Thoughts?

Wow, CQ, that's brilliant. That's how I started, 3 years ago. Next week you'll be doing 2 or 3, and before you know it you'll be doing sets of 20.

And, as you keep on losing weight, you'll have less and less to lift!

Well done, BreadandWine I always recommend any "treat" be part of a meal, as that normally reduces both the amount and its effects.
Similarly with alcohol and keep that within nhs limits, as you have also nailed now.

Many folk - those who don't have a problem with insulin metabolism - don't have an sugar "addiction" as such.
It's just that some junk is very tasty - but unhealthy & also calorific in excess - and they aren't eating enough real food.
Most folk don't wish - and don't need - to totally cut out added sugar, just apply a lot more moderation:

I generally suggest "treats" up to twice per week and sensible portions, say within 20% TDEE.
However, min 85% cocoa chocolate (no filling) has sufficient antioxidants and lowish sugar, to be positively healthy in moderation, e.g. 1 or 2 squares, even as a daily NFD pud, is great.

Detailled tactics are obviously individual, not just depending on individual psychology and lifestyle, but also on how damaging sugar is for that person:

i.e. whether it's someone like you - fit & healthy, but wanting to reduce an added sugar habit that was creeping up - or someone who is insulin-resistant / preT2 / T2 and hence whose body is basically unable to handle added sugar safely.
The latter basically are "addicted" to something dangerous for their particular body and they are the group who need to cut out sugar totally, if possible.

Great NSV, CQ Now you've nailed one pressup, it's amazing how you can build up to to sets of 3,5,8, 10 ...
The 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP has a section & video on pressup technique, because they are the best exercise for upper body and core strength.
Breadandwine and I are great pressup fans.

If you are worried about yo-yo dieters and health:
I haven't read the specific article, but I'm pretty sure that if you change your habits this time, reach goal - and keep to amaintenance plan - then any previous damage will disappear within at most a few years
Like giving up smoking - you can turn your life around.

This is why I keep droning on about getting NFDs under control: it is the key to successful maintenance

Our WOE is about developing healthy habits for the longterm - and we all need a definite maintenance plan; pointless to reach goal and then return to the original WOE that caused the problems.

Another loss this week taking me to 15.5lbs off. Even better is that my size 12 jeans fit me including a bit of extra "wiggle room" as I call it! It's been a few years since I wore them so I'm really thrilled

I'm. Still here. Been 5:2 ing for 18 months . It's a way of life. I can't sleep tonight as I am both cold and hungry. This is rare though. Hello fellow fasters.

Everyone is doing so well! Keep going, and keep posting/reading.

Just wanted to share one big downside of this WOE that I'm discovering... It's costing me a fortune in new clothes - but I'm actually enjoying shopping for once. I've always been a pear shape, and hated shopping for trousers (always had to belt them in) and only wore A line/flared skirts. I seem to have evened out a lot as I've lost weight, which is interesting - not completely, but I seem to be able to wear straight skirts now without looking ridiculous.

I'm now maintaining, weighed in this morning at 9st 5, my current plan is to keep it under 9st7 (I'm 5'6''). I posted a week ago in the 5:2 maintenance thread, but no replies, so I'll post maintenance questions here if that's ok with everyone? I'm still "tweaking" at the moment, and also thinking that continuing to be fairly strict until Christmas wouldn't be a bad idea.

Thanks, as always.

Congrats on your SV and jeans NSV, Emison Now you can enjoy favourite items from your wardrobe again.

Well done on maintaining, fusspot
We all have an occasional FD that seems tough for some reason, but stay focused and chant our mantra:
"I can have it tomorrow"

Well done on reaching goal FastingRocks and really sensible that you are planning for the future

Maintenance recommendations:

• First 2 weeks: keep WOE unchanged, to make sure weight is stable, within goal range.
• After this, gradually ease towards maintenance routine, one step at a time e.g. if you still mfp on NFDs, just do so on say 2 NFDs for 2 weeks, then if ok stop mfp the kther days
• If you are starting maintenance not long before a vacation period, like Xmas, then it is a good idea to aim to stay at the lower end of your goal range, to give wiggle room

Longterm Maintenance:

• Weigh regularly, at least weekly, preferably more often If you gain 4 lb, return immediately to full 5:2
• NO snacks or grazing, ever
• Keep alcohol and sweet treats to sensible amounts, within 20% TDEE Drink lots of water; eat lots of veg. Regularly include beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt.
• Keep to a definite longterm plan, e.g. 6:1. If you return to your old WOE, your return to your old weight & waist
• Breaks for vacation are fine, but before you start, note in your calendar the day you will return to plan and have your next FD.

Thanks bigchoc very interesting about how difficult it was to lose weight post menopause using the usual methods but success with 5:2

Well done Emison and OMG yes to fastingrocks I hear you on the clothes thing. Great though!

Thanks everyone!