5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I have been on this thread about 2 years ago. Didn't lose a lot of weight, But, got into the rhythm and relocation and life took over and have completely fallen off the wagon. Have gained about 5 kgs in the interim.
Really really want to get back and lose weight and become healthy. Really feeling low, lost and depressed about my state and inability to do anything about it. I know, its all down to me..but, therein is the problem

Have been told by GP I have borderline hypertension and should really try and improve my condition by losing weight. He is holding off from putting me on medications just yet. I have at least 2 stones to lose before I can get into a healthy weight range. But, of course, baby steps. So, my first target is to lose 4 kgs.

Anyone who has done 5:2/IF, and has high blood pressure. Any special tips you can share please. Thank you

Hi spg no clue about the high blood pressure but weigh loss & being well does help it. Doing something about your weight loss is finding what will suit you. Read the OP & see if it fits in with your lifestyle. There's support here when you need it

spg

High BP is often part of a collection of health issues occurring together, known as

Metabolic Syndrome:
High BP, Belly fat high blood sugar, low HDL & high LDL cholesterol, junky carby diet

spg To lower BP, I suggest Mediteranean-type food on 5:2 , to cut right down on the junk that often leads to metabolic syndrome, belly fat etc.

• Cut out fast food, takeaways, deep-fried food - all can worsen BP
• Boost veg
• Boost lentils, beans, peas
• Have fish 2-3 x weekly instead of meat. Studies show the omega 3 can lower BP
• Add flaxmeal or flaxseeds too, also for the omega 3
• Plain Greek yoghurt
• (small portions of) UNSALTED nuts & seeds
• Swap to a low sodium high potassium salt-substitute, e.g. the brand LoSalt. Research suggests it may help slightly
• On FDs, cut out starchy carbs. On NFDs, keep their portions moderate, wholegrain if possible. No junk carbs. You may find you do better with low carb on most NFDs too.
• Cut right back on added sugar, sugary carbs e.g. sweets, cake, biscuits, ice cream etc (even homemade)
• Also cut right back on savoury junk carbs, e.g. pizza, crisps, deep-fried food

Better habits that help reduce high BP:

• Cut out coffee, espresso and other high-caffeine drinks
• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines every day - excessive alcohol can raise BP
• Nicotine - Stop smoking (if you do)
• Regular exercise. No need to go mad; even a brisk daily walk helps

Thanks everyone who has kindly responded to my post.
BigChocFrenzy,
Thank you for your suggestions. I am a vegetarian and don't eat egg; I am looking at using Quinoa as a rice replacement.
I don't drink alcohol and don't smoke and don't drink fizzy drinks.
I do love coffee, with milk and sugar, I have to add [embarassed]. That is often my downfall.
I am slowly reminding myself of all the things that I learnt here, 2 yrs ago. For example, how bad snacking is, even on seemingly healthy snacks!! And how it keeps the sugar levels raised all the time. And how its a good thing for the body to go into the Ketosis (?) state.

For now, I just want to get started.

I am definitely a scales not matching person. Weight is up and down and have only "lost" about 2 kg in 6 weeks, But I've lost 7cm off my chest, 9cm off my waist (I might have recorded that one wrong though the first time). 6cm off hips. 2cm off thigh and 1cm off Bicep. So glad I measured or I'd probably quit!!

Brilliant inches cm NSV, Newman That's burned bodyfat, which improves health factors, together with clothes fit & appearance
However, I wonder if you are weighing yourself under identical conditions and if your scales are dodgy or need new batteries ?
We've seen scales take a while to catch up, but I'd still expect more than 2kg for 6-7 cm lost all down your trunk, from chest to hips.

spg Since you are vegetarian, I recommend adding flaxmeal / flaxseeds, chia seeds, seaweed (all good omega 3) , boosting beans, lentils, peas (stabilise blood sugar) and of course lots of veg.
Moving to slow release carbs should help too: Oats, quinoa, brown/ red rice, bulghur wheat, wholegrain bread

I did FD1 yesterday and am actually looking forward to FD2 tomorrow. Am so pleased with my mindset change.

BigChoc - can I ask what your maintenance regime is? Is it still 5:2, or more like 6:1?

Morning.
Everyone's fds seem to be going OK.
I'm with you dowager got through yesterday and quite looking forward to the next one (thurs), I must say I could of ate my fingers this morning though, pub on wholemeal fixed it.

That's pnb not pub on toast.

FD here. Not feeling overly inspired but Tues is usually my success day.

Great on the cm newman i'm sure I wouldn't consider weight important if I could get my trousers back on!

Dowager The best maintenance regime for the individual depends on:

• How easily you maintain / gain weight
• If fasting helped health conditions
• If you want to regularly exceed TDEE some days
• What is sustainable longterm

Many folk maintain on 6:1, or on daily 16:8, or stay on 5:2 and eat back the deficit
Very few folk (on any diet) can avoid regain in the longterm (3 years +) without a clear maintenance plan

Personally, I stayed on 5:2 because:

• I'm age 60, obv post-meno and weight soon creeps on around my middle, even though I'm a lifelong exerciser. I was naturally lean until 50 crept up.
• I'm greedy and I like a couple of v indulgent NFDs. So I'd soon regain if I didn't fast.
• Health: Fasting stopped stone-dead the horrid bouts of ulcerated throat with v high fever that I suffered for the 10 years before 5:2. My immune system was atrocious and I couldn't fight off anything I wish I'd known about IF before; the combination of repeatedly burst eardrums and umpteen antibiotics has resulted in severe hearing loss

I've felt brilliant on 5:2, even though I took months to get down to 500-600 FDs
FDs are easy now - I haven't counted cals for ages. I normally have say a salmon fillet with a massive salad for lunch. Sometimes after especially tough evening training, I also have some plain Greek yoghurt or kefir, with a few berries.

creeps back into thread.... again

Hi guys

I've been massively struggling to get back to 5:2... since Christmas I've basically eaten All.The.Carbs - craving them constantly and gaining weight - obviously.

Well a friend of mine died a couple of days ago in tragic circumstances. It has really shaken me and I've decided that I'm going to take it as a lesson that you never know what is around the corner and absolutely have to make the most of the life you get. So- today is my first FD of 2017, so far I've had nothing but water and have a snack planned at lunchtime- just some cheese and a raw carrot. Then dinner is going to be chicken and a mountain of veggies I think. That will leave me with calories spare if I want a cuppa / or another snack in the evening.

Evenings is when I've been eating all the time so want to save most of my calories for then.

I can do this
I will do this
I've planned some fear facing challenges this year and for one of them particularly I need to get my weight back down. No complacency I absolutely have to be focused and get down to a healthy weight.

I'll read back a bit and see if anyone I recognise is still hanging around, hi to those I've not met yet!

Thank you everyone. It's good to have looser trousers. I might try replacing the batteries. Maybe that's it.. I weigh in the same spot, no clothes, pre and post wee! I don't think DH will be too keen to replace them sadly

And fast day today. I'm starving! My dinner was really yummy and I wanted more of it but couldn't. Might make a green tea to get me through...

Ot-oh i'm already on 310 Cals and it's only just 12.00!!! This is going to he a struggle to reign it back in . I was simply ravenous this mrng. Perhaps this can be rescued?

OooMrDarcy welcome back. So sorry for your loss . It's a lovely tribute to try to improve your own quality of life.

Welcome back, MrD I'm sorry for your loss
I was originally motivated into researching IF by a cluster of bereavements (one tends to suddenly start losing friends, parents etc in your 50s)

round Was your morning rather carb heavy, not enough protein ?
Most folk do better with low GI or low carb FDs.
Especially avoid fruit juice or sweet breakfast cereal, both of which can spike insulin levels, so you are soon hungry again
Some 5:2ers prefer just have black coffee / espresso for breakfast and wait until lunch or even supper to eat

Thanks Maz and BigChoc, he was only 39 so has shocked me to my core tbh. He was such a fun, kind guy that was really there for me when I was going through hell after separation from my ex.

I'm still on just water to drink (most I've drunk in a day since probably October!) I've had 30g mature cheddar and a cut up carrot and I'm feeling fine. I've got a chicken breast defrosting and I'll eat that with a mountain of veg tonight so all will be good I hope.

Sorry to hear about your friend mrdarcy very sad

FD today but I'm struggling. Usually being busy at work is good but had 4 hours of meetings with a lunch provided today so I stuck to the salad and picked out the tuna, olives and veg but gave in to a few potatoes and I'm starving now. Might just have a mini FD and another try tomorrow.

Grrrrrr hate being scuppered like this!!

You are back on track, MrD ! just hang on until supper, then lots of water & clean your teeth to avoid late nibbles

Don't be disappointed; It's difficult to resist a free work lunch, Dontknow
If you plan to move the FD to tomorrow, then I suggest you make today a healthy NFD within TDEE (no junk, no booze) rather than a mini-FD. An FD after a mini might be too tough.

Actually it might be an okay fd after all, well about 600 kcal anyway as I've had a row with husband so not eaten anything and taken myself off to choir practice!!

Thanks so much for that, BCF - incredibly helpful. I suspect I will have to stick to 5:2 even in maintenance phase, as I like to live a little at the weekend.

Sorry to hear about the row, idontknow - not having a great FD, and then thinking, 'I'll try again tomorrow' was my downfall last year. It was so much harder to 'try again' the next day - I was even more hungry (at least by the evening), and more likely to succumb to temptation, so that I ended up not achieving a FD at all. I hope you sort things out with DH when you get home.

P.S. FD2 kicking off for me - ready and raring to go, and looking forward to stepping on the scales for the weekly weigh-in tomorrow morning.