5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I've made it. Or at least I have decided to have an early night to prevent failure. Sleep is good for weight loss apparently.

cozy i'm very impressed you held out until dinner with a hangover! I would consider it a success as I would have eaten my bodyweight in ..... well basically anything I could find 😆.

Good luck everyone.

Well done round
I'm just back from zumba, having a coffee and then off to bed in preparation for my FD tomorrow... eek!!!

Well done round and that early night can only do you good

Morning.
You all did so well yesterday good efforts everyone
Did manage a sv after fd 2. Was down to 11:13. (3lb since xmas) so there is fat loss going on in there. I'll choose to ignore numbers in between fds because of the fluid fluctuations.
Looking at 16:8 today just not over calorie later with a (shared) bottle of wine.
Happy weekend everyone.x

Did my second FD yesterday- went a little over at 608 but have also decided to avoid lots of carbs. I'm not being super strict but having found flax bread as a genuinely decent substitute for the toast I usually have my avocado/scrambled eggs/marmite on I think it will be much easier.

But sticking with fasting as well for health and extra weight loss. I bought a stunning dress a day or two ago for a party in a couple of weeks and it would look even better with a few pounds off!

Also very impressed by fasting after a hangover!

Well done on your SV, Happy and seeing the 11 stone somethings
The most reliable tracking measure is the weight the morning after FD2 each week.
Your weight can still vary within a week, but the trend over each 2-3 week stretch should be downwards..

fivetwo I particularly enjoy wholegrain chia wraps or oat-flax mini-pitabreads
On FDs, I often whizz up a high-fibre pud with water, Greek yoghurt, chia seeds, cinammon & vanilla. Very filling.

So having gother through FD 2 I was rewarded by......... gaining a lb !

Oh well onward and upward (well hopefully downward). Have just been tortured in an exercise classes, perhaps I can convince myself I've gained a muscle (just the one, I would hate to be greedy).

Round You could really have lost a pound of bodyfat, but this has been disguised by hormonal swings, water retention, undigested food etc.
Monitor after every FD2 and the trend over 2-3 weeks should be downwards.
If not, check your NFDs via mfp for a week - you may be eating / drinking too far over TDEE

Weigh consistently:

• First thing in the morning after 2nd FD of the week, naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything. Any of these can make a difference of 2-3 lb:
• Same scales, always in the same position on a level, hard floor - not carpet.
• (for digital) Switch on scales and count to 3 before stepping on, so they have time to zero properly
• Step on, no jumping; keep still & don't shift your balance or lean to one side If weight seems inconsistent, replace batteries. Check scales aren't broken !

So fri fd going well so far. Had chicken salad for tea. Missing my Friday glass bottle of wine especially as everything on TV seems to have wine but I've come this far so will continue chanting the mantra I can have it tomorrow... hope other Friday fasters are doing well...

You're nearly there, DontKnow
It usually takes a month to break a habit or start a new one. So, if you make Friday a regular FD then after a while, you'll have ditched that Friday bottle habit.

I've been reading about intermittent fasting and a Mediterranean type diet being good for helping to clear up the effects of too many antibiotics in your system http://www.wired.co.uk/article/ditch-diets-tim-spector-genetic-epidemiologist. Like candida/ibs and yeast overgrowth

I've 2 stone to lose I have ibs and acid reflux. I'm in very good health and fairly fit - walk our dog daily
I've tried loads of diets and I'm sick of diets and diet-speak I want something that I can incorporate into my everyday life and I want to enjoy my food

I'd like to try intermittent fasting but don't understand the difference between if and 5:2

Also, does 5:2 give you headaches or worsen insomnia?
Any advice anyone

Hi, nell IF is the general name; 5:2 is one of the several versions of IF you can do.

On 5:2, you have 500 cals on 2 days per week and eat normally the other 5 days

5:2 / IF can help resolve issues with insulin metabolism and with inflammation, e.g. IBS, asthma, PCOS, preT2 as well as weight management.

Check out the OP for detailled info about 5:2, how to do it, useful tips & links and many links to peer-referenced scientific publications about IF and 5:2.

Mediteranean food combined with 5:2 is a very healthy way to lose weight.
You can maintain afterwards with the same type of food, but optionally reduce fasting to say 6:1, which is just one FD per week

Thanks big choc I'm actually quite proud of myself that I managed it 😁 I think unless I have something planned for a Friday then I will make it a FD.

Oh and just weighed. .. another 2.5lbs off so thats 8.5lb in 3 weeks.... very happy with that.

Husband wants chinese take away tonight, it's not my favourite cuisine so not worried about overy eating but curious as to what is the best to order. I'd normally have bean curd or chicken with cashew nuts and rice or chow mein. ... any ideas?

Good luck any weekend fasters

Thanks Bigchoc I'll have a read of all the stuff on here and get planning. I think I need something to improve my health too and t5:2 sounds like it could do that, I get lots of inflammatory type things - ibs wind reflux and a bit of joint probs that I don't want to get worse with age. My mum has Alzheimer's and everything I've read says it's not hereditary (except the early onset one)but it does make me v aware of diet and fitness.
I'm moving house Monday!!! So I'll be out of things but I'll read and think and plan and aim to start the next week. No wifi from Monday til next week either.

Well done on your SV, Dontknow and on the Friday FD.
Training yourself like this in healthier habits also helps a lot in maintenance later.

On the NFDs, whether Chinese or any other type of meal, no need to deprive yourself, just don't stuff yourself either.
Take the time to enjoy the social occasion, enjoy your food and chew properly, don't gulp it down at warp speed - another chant:

"I am NOT a Labrador"

nell Mark Mattson is a world-leading researcher into diseases of aging.
He advocates IF and 5:2 to help reduce the risk of conditions like dementia and Parkinson's - I put links to his work in the OP Science section.

Several of us who are longterm maintainers are middle-aged and we chose 5:2 originally to help reduce some health risks - weight loss was more of a side benefit.

Ha ha I have a labrador so know exactly what you mean will try that chant also!!

I love that, I am not a labrador will certainly be chanting that

Another Labrador owner, who totally appreciates that chant!

It's a good tip - mindful eating - slow down and enjoy it, and you end up feeling full sooner.

I read yesterday about the "whoosh" in weight loss where your fat cells retain fluid then it eventually gets released. I think I've been retaining fluid for a week or so. My face feels a bit tight today and my hands and feet. (Not bad but I can tell) my weight fluctuates up to 700g daily. It is very hot and humid at the moment as well which doesn't help (today it's raining due to a cyclone but yesterday was 38).

Is there any tips I can do to get rid of this fluid?

I've been pretty good with my diet and doing HIIT classes 2-3 times a week

Squoosh / Water Retention
Some - not all - people experience water retention at times during any weight loss WOE (not just 5:2/IF)
They are burning bodyfat, but their weight stays the same because the fat cells are filling with water.
This may be due to raised cortisol, or to hormostasis (the body attempts to maintain weight)

This retention is discouraging and causes some to give up.
However, if you persist, the water will usually be released after 2-3 weeks, in what is sometimes called a "whoosh"
Hence why some folk seem to lose in fits & starts, rather than the same amount weekly.

Newman There are tactics to trigger the "whoosh" of water release if it is delayed.

First, do be quite sure that you are sts because of water retention, not because of the usual reason of overeating on NFDs
Then, I suggest allowing 2 weeks for the whoosh to happen on its own, so maybe another few days for you.

In the meantime, increase your water intake, even if it is already good and cut out fizzy drinks, takeaways & heavily processed food.

After the 2 weeks, try to reduce cortisol levels - high levels cause water retention - like this:

• Drop any tough cardio like long runs or HIIT for say 5 days and replace by relaxed daily walks, not too long
• Have one carb refeed meal with plenty of starchy food - potato / rice / pasta but keep the fat reasonably low so as not to pile on the calories. So, veg plus moderate amount of lean protein plus e.g. pasta with tomato sauce rather than creamy sauce / potato without butter or cream

If it works, you should pee a lot in the morning (or even in the night with high water retention)

Also, check that your calorie deficit doesn't exceed 3500 cals for that trigger week, because a higher deficit may also raise stress / cortisol and retain water.

Thank you big choc you're very helpful. I'll give it lit a bit longer. I'm definitely a bit puffy but maybe I've had a few treats more than I realised too