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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2016 11:31

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Cozytoesandtoast00 · 25/01/2017 12:31

I agree entirely with you theDowager
It is about thinking about the positives. Change is hard but it becomes easier the more FD's you do.
This is my third week and I had a fast yesterday. It's getting so much easier and I feel so much more alert and energised.
I feel more in control and it's only January so i've got ages to lose weight for the summer. My lunch wasn't healthy today. Beef pasty and crisps 😶 which is unusual for me!
Need to look at NFD's next...
Well done everyone... keep going...

BigChocFrenzy · 25/01/2017 15:24

Well done on your SV, round and good luck for your FD tomorrow.

Sounds like you are adapting well to this WOE, cozy
The good habits you are learning will help you maintain later

Remember everyone, if you find say an FD tough and you need help to stay on course, just post here and someone will be around to encourage you.

OP posts:
Notreallyhappy · 25/01/2017 16:38

Thanks BCF,
I'm only about 12lb off my lowest adult weight so it's going to take time. Shape is what I tend to look at. Body in perimeno state so all over the place in hormones.

Headinthedraw · 25/01/2017 18:30

Loving the positive messages here.Kitchen closed on a FD.Busy at work so held off til 6pm.380kcal covent garden soup (whole pot of their super green stuff-couldn't be faffed with cooking) and a banana.Feel fine and have a homemade chicken pie to look forward to tommorow. Might be in bed by 7pm though!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/01/2017 19:20

Well done Head
I look on FDs as my pampering or self-care days, when I don't eat anything that isn't nutritious and I have an early night to boost sleep.
I sometimes have a hand & foot massage; others have their nails done, or enjoy a face mask, or a soak in bubble bath.

Happy I'm post-meno and I found 5:2 was the only effective way of trimming back my waist again.
Other women have also reported how fasting helps at this life stage.
It is probably because fasting can help insulin metabolism - the menopause means that the balance of hormones, including insulin, changes and tend to add bodyfat, especially around the waist.
Fasting is known to also help PCOS, another condition related to insulin metabolism.

OP posts:
TheDowagerCuntess · 25/01/2017 19:20

Hopped on the scales this morning after FD2 and have lost half a kilo since my last weigh-in when I started. Still 7-8 kilos off my goal weight, but good progress.

Also keep reminding myself that weight loss is only part of the deal, it's also about the health benefits and the extra energy. ⚡️

TheDowagerCuntess · 25/01/2017 19:23

Love the idea of self-care days Choc.

And also really interesting re menopause. I admit this is part of why I really want to get back into this WOE. Menopause is a few years away yet, but still around the corner. I'd like to have a good handle on a weight I feel happy and confident at before heading into it, as I feel it will be that much harder to shift afterwards.

Cozytoesandtoast00 · 26/01/2017 07:09

Morning Fasters 😊
Today is my second fast of the week and i'm feeling a little hungover!
It was a friends birthday last night and I had a bit more wine than usual. Do you think it's still ok to fast? Or should I defer until Friday?

Roundisashape · 26/01/2017 07:32

FD here too. I don't envy you the FD with hangover cozy. If you are anything like me you will want lots of cards. However maybe a FD will be good. Lots of water, healthy type foods and body repairing? I am not perhaps a great source of advice. But good luck either way

BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 08:12

Good luck on your FD, round
< whispers to sore head Smile > Cozy Drink lots of water, whatever you decide and also glug a teasp of Marmite to boost your B vitamins, as well as minerals.

If you think you can manage an FD, do so;
If not have a healthy NFD < evil, bellows loudly Grin > - decent food within TDEE to replace nutrients, no sugary / carby junk, no booze, no snacks - and move the FD to tomorrow

Well done on your SV, Dowager I totally agree with trying to reach - and maintain - goal weight as early as possible before menopause.
Also, bodyfat that has been there for several years tends to be more difficult to shift than if it addressed early.

Weight loss is often more difficult (on any WOE) in the pre-meno phase too. So, your slow weight loss may be due to this.
However, if it persists, I strongly recommend checking your NFDs with a week on mfp.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 08:21

Monitor your waist & hips too, Dowager or clothes fit

Some 5:2ers find the scales take a while to catch up with the scales.

This is because all forms of Intermittent Fasting tend to improve body composition (% lean mass, % bodyfat) even without changes to exercise.

This is why many 5:2ers report they are a smaller size than compared to when they were last this weight.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 08:22

scales take a while to catch up with the tape measure

OP posts:
ohidontknowwhattochoose · 26/01/2017 09:03

Morning....
Hmmmm there is no way in the world I could fast on a hangover so fingers crossed you manage it cosy if you decide to go for it!

I'm undecided today also whether to have today as 2nd fd or tomorrow in an effort to try and wean myself off that Friday night bottle of wine Hmm I have a birthday meal for nephew on Sunday so should limit alcohol until then.... Hmmmm

Any advice?

Cozytoesandtoast00 · 26/01/2017 09:13

Thanks for the brilliant advice Fasters 😊
I'm going to go for it and see how it goes.
I'm not feeling too bad and will definitely have marmite, loads of water and coffee!

BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 11:17

dontknow If the Friday bottle of wine is a habit, then I suggest making Friday a regular FD.
In my case, I learned after a few months that I need a regular Saturday or Sunday FD even in maintenance. I recommend this to anyone who finds that their "normal" weekend sabotages weight loss

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 11:19

(I'm near teatotal, so my weekend problem was umpteen choc donuts and choc pie; same principle. Without intending to, a weekend FD surprisingly stopped me eating crap the other 6 days)

OP posts:
Emison · 26/01/2017 15:41

I could only do one FD this week but I'm still down 0.5lbs. This brings my total to 4lb down. TBH I was happy just to maintain this week so a loss was a nice surprise Smile

ohidontknowwhattochoose · 26/01/2017 16:32

Yes bigchoc I feel entitled to it after a week at work but sometimes I would have another on half of that Shock and the inevitable nibbles cheese! So I'm planning a FD for tomorrow. I will be chanting our mantra quite a lot tomorrow I would imagine Confused

ohidontknowwhattochoose · 26/01/2017 16:33

Well done emison

MazDazzle · 26/01/2017 16:41

Checking in for a FD here. I have a roast chicken in the oven and a huge tray of roast veg (mushrooms, peppers, aubergine, sweet potato and butternut squash with garlic and rosemary). I'll skip the roast potatoes and Yorkshire puddings, pile on the veg. and eat the white meat without the skin. The smell is divine!

This talk of weekend FD and tracking all NFDs is really resonating with me. I'm losing weight, but it is sloooooooow. I'm def. eating absentmindedly, drinking too much wine and indulging at weekends. I'm gradually losing the bad habits, but a fair way to go yet. I used to do 2xFD, 2x1000 cals, 2 x TDEE and one day where I relaxed a bit. That's my target.

Haven't been measuring myself, but like you said upthread BC, I've been this weight before and been at least one size bigger.

I have been nailing the exercise this week and last. For me, this is the only way to shift the lbs.

Roundisashape · 26/01/2017 18:35

This is what I would call the 'danger zone'. That point in the day when I say sod it to deprivation and fasting. Currently on 536 Cals for the day and somehow have to avoid eating for the next few hours. I must make it this time, this will be the week I manage 2 whole FD's.

Cozytoesandtoast00 · 26/01/2017 20:04

Well done roundisashape
I gave in to the "danger zone"
Did so well all day (with hangover!) and then went to my mums after the school run. She had cooked me Macaroni cheese and baked chicken 😶
Will start again Monday as got some lots planned over the next few days...
I'm going to miss breakfasts until Monday..

MazDazzle · 26/01/2017 20:21

Come on Round, don't give in!

Paint your nails/ have a bath/ clean your teeth/ have a nice cold drink/ have an early night!

Anything to stop you from caving! Think of the lovely breakfast you can have tomorrow. Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 20:28

Well done on your SV, Emison especially on a 6:1 week.

Nearly there, round
Drink a full glass of water and then clean your teeth, to avoid spoiling your good work today

Stay on track, Maz Sounds a delicious meal < dribble >
Why not try 5:2 with just one mini-FD; you may be finding it tough to be moderate on NFDs because you don't have enough of them !

Tracking with mfp for a week would give a reality check about whether the NFDs are around TDEE and highlight what to change if not.
Calculate TDEE for one activity level lower (which Mosely says is more likely to be accurate)

Tips to stay within TDEE / maintain weight loss

  • NO snacking between meals.
  • Keep within NHS alcohol guidelines every NFD - more than 2 small glasses any day will slow down fat loss That Friday or Saturday bottle is the first habit to break. Alcohol doesn't just have calories, it also stops fat burning for hours until your liver has processed all the toxic byproducts. Alcohol calories are stored preferentially around the waist.
  • Sugary crap spikes insulin, increases hunger and also tends to midsection fat gain. Try to 2:5 it, e.g only on 2 days per week, say once at the weekend and once during the week.
  • Try reducing starchy carbs portion and replacing by an equal volume of lentils, beans, mushy peas - which I love ! - to help stabilise insulin
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/01/2017 20:30

Try a Friday FD tomorrow, cozy to avoid the wine

OP posts: