5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome, Dowager Let's chant our FD mantra: "I can have it tomorrow"
The FDs are very restrictive, but the NFDs shouldn't be, unless you find that your "natural eating / eating to appetite" exceeds TDEE (in which case, use the 5:2 weight loss phase to train yourself about portion size / food choices)

It is vital not to regard 5:2 or any weight loss method as "temporary" though
Almost everyone needs a maintenance plan that may be 5:2 / 6:1 / 16:8 / eating within TDEE - but can't be the WOL that made you overweight before.

If you return to your old WOE, you return to your old weight & waist

Factors causing regain:

• Returning to your old WOE, or too near to that
• TDEE reduces with age
• Adaptive thermogenesis for those who have lost more than about a stone, i.e. their real TDEE is lower than that of someone naturally that weight without dieting.

I know several runners, including those who train for marathons each year, but who have consistently put on weight.
(This seems particularly so for women runners - over the last 15 years, one pal has gone from slightly chubby to obese, whereas her male DP has gone from slightly chubby to a lean mean machine, both running the same marathons - grrrh unfair)

Steady state cardio, such as running & swimming, is notorious for increasing appetite in many folk
The increased intake that happpens with "eating to appetite" usually far exceeds calories burned.
HIIT and lifting don't increase appetite as much and can even help suppress it, when done in short sharp bursts.

Exercise is vital for health, but for almost everyone it is what you eat & drink that is the dominating factor in weight & bodyfat.

Exercise usually reduces visceral fat (the dangerous kind around the organs) but the subcutaneous (under skin) and lower body fat increases if you take in more fuel than your body burns.

Try hot Bovril on winter FDs - it's only 10 cals per mug and not being sweet it is less likely to awaken hunger pangs.
Also, a brisk walk or Mosely's 5 minute Fat Blasts can help distract you
FD hunger comes in waves which go away if you ignore them, rather than continually increasing. I find I totally forget about food during busy periods on FDs.
So, keep busy, with your brain concentrating on other things

Good luck, Monday fasters !

Oops, busy multitasking on my FD - I forgot that it's Tuesday !

FD going well so far.... got a chicken salad from subway for dinner then off to choir practice, will have a sugar free vanilla coffee when I get in tonight and then off to bed. Hope everyone else is going well

Currently at 503 Cals, but feeling a little shaky. Got to get through a metafit class at 8, then crawl into bed. Whilst starving I am not tempted to eat. Last week I stuffed my face on left over fish fingers and chips before the class. To say I was looking a bit green (a change from red) at the end of it was an understatement 😆.

I'm so cross with myself.

Finally fasted today for the first time in a long time in a bid to get back to the 5:2 WOE. For dinner took a stir fry recipe from an app that says it was about 250 cals and picked up rice noodles to go with it. Cooked it, had dinner, I've just put it into MFP and it's come out at 540 calories. Then I realised I'd forgotten about milk and sugar from my coffees earlier. So now I've been hungry all day for absolutely no reason. Reckon I may as well have the chocolate bar that's in the fridge.

I think maybe it's a portion control thing. Plus the recipe said to include cashew nuts and I've only just realised how many calories are in them!

rachel step away from the chocolate bar. I am sure even with milk and sugar you can't be that far over the 500. And most probably less than 1000. Call this your easing in tester session. And accept you did well and learn from it for FD #2.

Don't have the choccie bar!

In 5 mins, it'll have gone - you feel even more deflated, and you'll have consumed the extra calories.

Leave it on the shelf, brush your teeth and enjoy it tomorrow.

Roundisashape and TheDowagerCuntess you're right, I'm still under 600. The chocolate is staying in the fridge.

Better plan my next FD properly! :-)

Well done. Positive thinking

I've just closed the kitchen on my FD, 600 cals which is my usual maintenance FD.
I had salad, because I love the raw veg on FDs, even in winter. I had soup, hot Bovril & green tea with ginger as well though.

Well done Rachel for resisting the choc bar. 600 casl is a decent FD total for you too

Tip:
Before you start an FD, calculate what calories you wish to take from your 500 for (almond ?) milk & (if you wish) sugar.
Measure out milk & sugar for the day and out in little pots. When they are gone, they are gone !

Round I've learned that I need a fairly empty stomach before exercise, or I feel very uncomfortable and I also fart for England when lifting
Morning training: I do fasted, just with double espresso 10 mins before - helps make bodyfat available for fuel
Evening training: I either have a light meal about 2 hrs, or a heavy meal 4-6 hrs, before
Many exercise tips in the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 and recent posts.

Great pep talk, Dowager How are you doing ?

That's a really good idea re milk and sugar. I might try almond milk and sweetener next time. And all is not lost; I scanned the bar codes on my ingredients and it turns out that I had chosen a couple of things wrong on MFP before so the dinner is even fewer calories than I originally thought.

Well done rachel you can have the choc bar tomorrow if you still want it.

Kitchen closed at 560cals... off to bed shortly. Night 😀

NFD here and managed not to scoff myself silly -which was the problem last time I did 5:2.Lost weight but felt unhealthy from eating rubbish between FDs.3 meals today and tonnes of veg.Had 3 after eights (relics from christmas) and feel content with that.Will stick to black coffee for FD tommorow-have some miso soup sachets (spell check almost made me write misogony soup there 😀)too.Brushing teeth good tip.

I'm doing well thanks - it's Wednesday lunch time here, and I'm on FD2 for the week.

I'm actually trying to fast on FDs, until dinner time. It's been going ok for me.

Can I ask people about milk in tea and coffee? I have a couple of coffees in the morning, and then a few cups of Early Grey throughout the day, with just a splash of skimmed milk.

What are we talking calorie-wise here? It seems really nit-picky, but for me to do this long term, going without tea and coffee, or drinking it black, just makes FDs too miserable an experience.

What do others do?

Almond milk has been a suggestion-much lower calories.I can't digest it though-makes me feel sick .Think I'll limit myself to 2-3 cups with skimmed and then have lemon in hot water the rest of the time.

dowager skimmed milk has approx 35 Cals per 100mls, 1% fat just under 50 for 100mls.it's probably enough for 3 cups of hot drinks.

Lots of positive attitudes going on here I like it, taking a bit for myself.
Fd #2 here. Have now got into lasting all day. Not turning the eating switch on till dinner works OK for me. Scales is having an up & down moment but the middle shape is changing so it's OK. It's not a sprint it's a wol.
Have a good day all. X

On the tea front I suppose it very much depends on how milky you have your drinks. Those little milk pots contain 12ml. I certainly don't have more than that, therefore by my reckoning that's about 5.something Cals per cup.

Thanks guys! I really just have a splash in my cup - don't think I'm going to lose too much sleep over it. It didn't do me any harm last time, but I think I have been drinking more cups of tea now that I'm fasting until dinner time. It's just something to do, as much as anything!

Loved the tip a few posts back to floss and brush straight after dinner on FDs.

I had a 400 cal dinner, and about 5 or 6 cups of tea today!

I don't feel desperate, which is great.

Another positive I'm focusing on, is how good (read: pious) I feel waking up the morning after a good FD.

Milks
. unsweetend almond milk has about 15 cals for 100 ml, unsweetened oat milk is 42 cals,
. skimmed dairy milk is 35 cals, whole milk is 65 cals

Hot Drinks which do not need milk
. Roibos tea (naturally sweet)
. Herbal tea - e.g. fenchel & aniseed, ginger & lemon - go well with stevia sweetener (zero cals, doesn't affect gut flora according to Mosely)
. Bovril (10 cals)

Well done on your FD Dowager

That's good progress with the NFDs, Head
Our NFDs don't need to be super-healthy, but we should keep to at least the same standard as pre-5:2

Well done on your waist NSV, Happy That means you are reducing bodyfat in the most important area.

Don't worry if the scales sts or even go up one week:
weight can naturally vary a few lb due to undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water
This can disguise sts or even the average 1lb weekly loss

If the scales don't go down for 3 weeks, then that is probably a plateau.
If you have lost a chunk of weight, your body may be pausing to rebalance before losing more
Or you may need to check you aren't overdoing NFDs and eating back the FD deficit - a week on mfp can give a reality check about portion size and hidden calorie bombs, also amount of "treats / alcohol"

So I am a lb down which is good. Now need to behave myself and finish the second FD tomorrow. Should be OK actually as I will be in the office. Which helps..... sort of.