5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Why is Canada different to the UK ?

Canada's main exports to the EU are pearls, precious metals, mineral products, i.e. its natural resources.
80% of Uk exports are services, not physical goods

The UK needs a lot more access to the EU market than Canada will get under CETA
e.g. passporting rights for the City, customs union, unified norms.

Trade deals between most countries (not just with the EU) typically take 5-10 years to agree.
How are UK exporters supposed to survive in the meantime ?

People keep talking about tariffs - they really aren't the worry.
What takes the time in trade deals are the incredibly complex non-tariff issues.
A deal that includes services as well as physical goods is much less common.

btw, WTO rules deal almost entirely with physical goods. So the UK won't get far trying to export services under WTO.

whoops, clicked wrong thread
That shows it's past bedtime !

Hi newbie here, first fast day today, head is thumping from lack of coffee ☕️ as I can't drink it without milk! How do you cope with FD?

Morning highland good luck today.
A splash of milk in a coffee shouldn't make lots of difference in the fast. Count the Cals for it. Some use almond milk it's less Calories.
Do you like the fruit tea drinks, they help me not to over caffeine.

(Almond milk) & less insulin spike.

Tiptoeing back in after a horrendous bout of colds & coughs and general malaise chez CQ which started conveniently on Jan 2nd, so I feel I really haven't got going properly with the new year yet.

The weight gain wasn't too disastrous over the holidays - I certainly didn't binge like I usually do - I was determined not to put back what I'd lost since starting 5:2 in Oct. But it's been worse than I wanted, due to feeling bleurgh and needing comfort food.

Anyway, back on it this week. I started with getting back to the gym, cutting out all sugary stuff, and did a partial fast on Monday to get myself used to the idea again - just fasted all day until supper - DH was cooking on Monday and he made spaghetti carbonara so dinner was def more than 500 cals!

Will do a proper fast day on Friday as I'm driving up to Scotland to visit my poorly father, so can hopefully avoid rubbish at the service stations and just power on up.

Off to catch up on the thread now.

Broke My fast from yesterday with yum poached eggs and mushrooms was lovely. Same here CQ we've had colds and coughs galore since Christmas this is the first week we're all fighting fit! Good to get back to the routine of it again

highland For headaches, or to avoid them, gulp down a teasp of Marmite. This replenishes salt & minerals that tend to be lowered on an FD. It also boosts B Vits
An alternative is 1 tbsp unsweetened soy sauce (tbsp not teasp, because it is less concentrated than Marmite)
Either of these are only 10 cals, so you can add this twice per day say

Good luck Hyland and welcome to this WOE. I'm the same usually take a lot of milk in tea & coffees and don't like to do without them on a FD so I use Almond milk- low on calories and tastes good I actually use it now all the time in my tea I've gotten so used to it

Welcome back, CQ and well done for not bingeing over the long vacation.
That's a healthy habit NSV

Best wishes to all with winter colds & sniffles

If you feel too crap to fast, just go for healthy maintenance: healthy meals around TDEE, no sugary junk (weakens your immune system), no booze, no snacks.
If you have a fever, do NOT fast or exercis, just eat if you have appetite and keep drinking water

I'm another fan of unsweetened almond milk to replace dairy milk, even on NFDs. Tastes great in porridge or hot drinks and under 5 cals for a 25ml slug
If you are allergic to nuts, try oat milk.

Halfway through my first fast day, have so far not had breakfast or lunch and have drunk two bottles of water, had a mint at lunch time as i had no access to marmite or soy sauce, feeling strangely emotional and weepy is this normal?

Good effort on the water highland I probably don't have enough.
Not sure about the emotional thing. Never had it myself.
Did#2 fd. Got through till now on drinks alone. Sorted till tomorrow on 600.
Keep strong if your still fasting. X

2nd fasting day tomorrow. is it harder than the 1st as I will be going to bed hungry?! dreading it but I will tell myself I can eat on the next day. I have made a chicken salad with balsamic vinegar 199 cal and stirfry chicken, nakd noodles, veg and soy sauce for my tea, then I am off on friday yippee

will try the almond milk such good tips CQsave driving on Friday hope your dad is ok.

safe!

mend Good luck on your 2nd FD. That's a sensible menu
Most folk adapt to fasting within 2-3 weeks, so they don't find FDs too tough.

For the future, how to avoid it being tougher:

• Keep 2-3 NFDs between FDs
• On NFDs, eat to feel satisfied, not stuffed, but not hungry; it helps to avoid snacking between meals and avoid too much sweet junk & booze
• Try to keep other good lifestyle habits: enough sleep, plenty of water, at least a daily walk

3.5lbs down! I'm really pleased. I've decided to start from scratch this New Year so now the plan is to lose 11.5lbs before we go on holiday in June. I wanted to lose two stone this year (from last Summer) so I might just make it

Well done emison
2nd FD today and so far so good bit I have a question re: exercise. I am really unfit so going to zumba class tonight, obviously my first exercise class in yonks I'm probably not going to go mad but is exercising on a FD the sensible thing to do?

well done emison that's a good loss

Well done on your SV, Emison You are right back in the fasting swing

DontKnow Most people can exercise on FDs. Just don't push too hard if you aren't fully adapted to fasting and / or exercise.

Zumba should be OK, because it is fairly HIIT:
On FDs, most folk find HIIT or lifting easier than steady state cardio (like jogging or swimming) because the more intense exercise with brief recovery intervals makes it easier for to use bodyfat as fuel.
In contrast, the steady state exercise relies more on glycogen stores and carbs, which are usually depleted during an FD

Thanks!

Fantastic Emison 😊
I've nearly finished my second fast of the week. Actually went really well.
Have discovered almond milk in coffee, which tastes great!
Currently lying in the dark with my coughing daughter, willing her to sleep. Then I can go to bed... 😴😴😴

Thanks bigchoc I felt fine doing the exercise but now have a cracking headache so off to bed... should I weigh myself (day after 2nd fd) tomorrow as normal or am I going to be heavier cos of exercise?

dontknow I suggest you weigh yourself as usual, before you eat or drink anything.
There are many other factors that can make weight fluctuate, which is why we say look at the trend over 2-3 weeks and don't take one particular reading too seriously.

FD headaches For future FDs, gulp a teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-evening to try to avoid them
Also check you are drinking at least 1.5 l on FDs, lots of water, especially when you exercise.

Well done on your FD, cozy and i hope you & your DD managed aome sleep