5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning
FD is Pampering Day today: I'll have a short weightlifting session at the gym, then sauna, massage and an early night
Any other Sunday fasters ?

Today is my FD I'll also be having my second FD of the week on Tuesday. The rest of the week will be taken up with Christmas things. I'm not expecting a loss this week but I will be very happy to maintain my loss from last week

tip bcf b&W and all.......we'll all be healthy 5:2 maintainers like you guys in time!
Yes TIP to 5:2 ing through to January - that's my plan too
CQ Yay for size 16 jeans! Size 14 next...
Maz great news you are back in the zone. Every lb adds up..
WWW fab SV well done and yes, big thanks to BCF for all the info and advice to us all and (90% cocoa) to you!

Bit of a lengthy post but want to share my delight and in case this is helpful to anyone else struggling with carb cravings, here's my up date on day 6 of my low carb BSD 5:2 adventure;

-3lb down since last week (2 lb since tuesday)
-body visibly getting shapelier again
-ZERO carb cravings - this is huge for me as have battled since September with intermittent carb or sugar cravings, weight loss had plateaued and then worse I'd started to slip back and put some back on (Aaaargh)
-feel satisfied with a meal, don't overeat, don't want something sweet after a meal
-can feel hunger gradually, and calmly start to stir when 4 hours or more have elapsed
-energy levels fantastic
-feels like true natural hunger can be felt now
I could go on

Thank you SOOO much BCF and to everyone for words of encouragement when i was stuck and struggling

I plan now to continue low- carb 5:2 through to January (maybe 8 weeks, I am open to advice?)

End of long, happy post! Hope you've all had a good weekend

That's great news, Clear Such an important NSV to get cravings under control and having an SV too.
I thought 5:2 BSD would probably help you, since your symptoms sounded like classic insulin resistance, an inability to handle carbs.

I strongly recommend you stay on this WOE throughout the holiday season, because at this early stage even one sugary / carby treat is likely to spike cravings again and restart the horrid spiral. You could optionally drop an FD, but don't compromise on food types.

I suggest 3 months 5:2 BSD and only after this - and if you feel ready - gradually start to add healthy starchy carbs / fruit.
Remember to slightly reduce other food items, so you aren't increasing total calories.

Add one new food only, every fortnight, with a moderate portion EOD (every other day,) stopping that food immediately if it reignites cravings

If you don't already eat them, start with 50 - 80 g berries EOD
If that's ok for a couple of weeks, then add one at a time, 50-80g EOD in this order:
. sweet potatoes, parsnips - boiled or baked, not mashed or deep fried
. then wholegrains - oat bran, steelcut oats, brown rice, quinoa, buckwheat groats
Resistant starch: Cooking potato or pasta and letting it cool, then eating (cold or hot) reduces the effect on insulin levels.
. then other low-sugar fruit, like apples, pears. Not dried fruit or fruit juice.

Leave wholegrain bread until last - 1 slice per day - and only if you are confident your body can handle processed carbs (even homemade)

Mosely says some people can only tolerate 1-2 tbsp portions, so they treat wholegrains as a side, not a main component.
Experiment to find what suits your individual metabolism.

However, since low carb made such a dramatic improvement, it would be wise to permanently avoid junk carbs or added sugar if at all possible - including homemade cakes, biscuits & pies etc - since your body may never be able to handle them very well.

Hey guys sorry for not checking in
Week 3 today of fasting and 3 pounds down in the last 2. I was really pleased as once my bmi hits 24.5 I really plateau but I've made it past it! Yay!
Clear skies good work-I also have crazy carb cravings and have noticed if I eat some nuts it seems to curb my hunger in a more controlled way. Well done for beating it so quickly! I should prob do ur plan but not sure I can hack it!
Fast day today 575, seem to struggle on 500! Wil do same tmrw but I tend to eat much less than my tdee other days just because I'm too full so I think overall the extras 100 I have on fast days does no harm

Monikita just made ur hot coco it's lovely! :)

Well done on your SV, Trying Encouraging that you've cracked the 24.5 barrier
Don't worry about going a bit over on FDs, with your very good NFDs

• which also sounds like your insulin metabolism is ok. Most folk have occasional cravings, quite normal.

It's only if they are constant and blocking / reversing progress that you need to consider Mosely's low carb 5:2.

Well done trying getting past plateaus is very significant and well done for having a healthy insulin metabolism!

End of week 1 of low carb BSD 5;2 update - all going v v well, feeling great and yes BCF I agree wholeheartedly with al your advice above - I am committed to this new version of 5:2 100%. Will stick to it religiously for 3 months and follow steps above for starchy carbs coming back on the scene. My gut instinct fits totally with your advice - better to miss a FD than slip up on ANY starchy carbs, let alone fruit or sugar. Good thing is I don't even want them now.

Very important NSV from last few days, weight down another 1/4lb over 3 NFDs which reassures me that my way of working out how much to eat on NFDs without counting calories is still working , even with the massive changes I've made to what I'm eating on this low carb adventure.

Couple of questions BCF ; have cut out all fruit but usually use a little lemon juice or cider vinegar on salad. Shall I continue to avoid them?
Also usually have grated raw carrot, beetroot, celeriac, bulb fennel as a salad. Have stopped as they are root veg but would a little be ok do you think? (actually not sure if bulb fennel counts as a root veg as grows mainly above ground).

Thanks again BCF for quite possibly life saving advice. I have been slim in the past and that's where I want to get back to. And reduce risk of T2D, stroke, dementia, etc that all run in the family.

Have a good day everyone FD here

Great to hear your progress on 5:2 BSD, Clear Well done

Absolutely ok to have lemon / lime juice on salads, or a slice in water.
Your body wion't notice such a small amount of carbs.

Cider / wine / white vinegar or vinaigrette on salad - fine, can actually help insulin response
One exception - balsamic vinegar, which has enough sugar to affect you. Maybe reserve for later.
Enjoy olive oil, walnut oil too.

Salads:
Fennel and celeriac are quite low carb, so eat freely
Raw carrot should be fine grated in sensible amounts (2-3 tbsp) baby carrots are slightly lower carb
Beetroot is higher sugar, maybe keep for later
Tomato is ok in sensible amounts
Add a few pine nuts or crushed walnuts

Have loads of Low carb raw veg:
shredded red / white / green cabbage, baby spinach, lettice & other greens, watercress, broccoli, cauli, radishes, spring onions, bell peppers, muchrooms, bok choy, celery, cucumber, garlic.

btw, check soy sauce, almond milk, vanilla extracts etc don't have added sugar

Thanks BCF all noted - glad about the lemon/lime/cider vinegar as they add such good flavour.

Checking in for my FD today - brill to hear how lc med is working so well for you clear.

Glad you liked the cocoa tryin - I have it almost everyday now although not after 9pm otherwise I struggle to sleep!

Had quite a tame Xmas do last Friday thanks to a not very nice cocktail so ended up stopping drinking alcohol and eating at around 8pm - just as well really.

Looking forward to my chicken broth and chickpea soup tonight with lots of veg

Thanks Mon I'm very happy! Enjoy your broth/soup/veg combo. Got a fish/veg/salad combo coming up here in a bit

Ended up not fasting today and had a 3 course boozy lunch :(
Oh dear def over tdee!
Should I just eat 800 cals tmrw can't fast as have an important day at work and still get very tired end of day while fasting!

Combo combo combo

Trying I recommend you postpone the FD to Thursday or Friday instead, so you can do it properly.
And stay within TDEE tomorrow

If you don't have a chance to do another fd this week tryin I'd draw a line under it and move on. You could try to do a mini of 1000 cals tomorrow. I've done this before just by skipping breakfast, leaving me a good amount for lunch and tea - and I don't get weak but others might have better advice

Sorry cross post

I can manage 900 quite easily and not get too tired or irritable at work. Maybe I'll do that....must not eat the mince pies at work
Agh!

Morning all. Brrr it's cold and frosty outside.
Any Wednesday fasters ?
Trying It's better to move the FD to later in the week, when you can manage 500 (or thereabouts) rather than struggling to stay under 900 when there are mince pies and a tough day at work.

Morning all Happy Winter Solstice and have a good FD or NFD everyone - mild and damp here! Days get longer from tomorrow ( here in northern hemisphere that is) - hooray for lighter mornings soon...... Losing weight daily at the moment which is a delight 3/4lb down after yesterday 's FD, lots of veg, beans, seeds on 'menu' today

Good luck Trying choose the day that works easiest for you. Remember the poo crumbs on work mince pies!

I had my second FD yesterday and another loss! I'm now ready for Christmas, 19.5lbs down and fitting in my size 12 jeans. Merry Christmas to everyone on this thread. I might not comment every day but I do read it especially on FD

Well done on your SV and size 12 NSV, Emison Nudging 20 lb before Christmas - lovely for you

Thanks for reminding me, clear Useful reminder to everyone in the final working weeks of 2016:

Communal food has POO crumbs and snot spray

Well done, clear You've worked so hard for this,

Thank you BigChocFrenzy. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you!

2nd FD of the week here (sorry crazy busy didn't get to check in) well done everyone on SV and NSV, so good to read all your updates, I'm plodding along nicely sticking to the usual routine, keeping at the spinning and gyming this week (have booked in for spin class on Xmas eve morning, even though dh thinks I'm mad!!) but I'm really liking my routine and don't want to break it - so in case I'm not back again before Xmas have a lovely time my fasting family you are all a great support it's great to be able to come on here and talk away and get great advice will check in next week at some point for a FD happy Christmas 🎄 folks enjoy

Well done, WWW You're not the only Xmas gym rat !
I'm planning a marathon session of pressups at home of Xmas Eve (gym is cloed 24+25 Dec) then I'll join their 90 min pump class Monday morning.

I expect several pp will disappear soon, to rejoin in the NY, so:

Best Wishes for Christmas & the New Year to all 5:2 / IFers