5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done WWW and great news EM size 12 jeans!

FD here, anyone else? All well here - no cravings, feeling good

Thanks BCF so proud of myself for not giving up and now having the low carb key to further progress . Enjoy those pressups!

Good luck on your FD, Clear I'll have one tomorrow.

Hello all, great to see so many amazing SVs and NSVs.

My second fast day of the week is done and dusted for the day - wasn't even remotely tempted by the chocolates, mince pies and champagne that were everywhere I turned in the office today.

I do have one rather indelicate question for you all though...

Whenever I have my evening (and only) meal on a fast day, immediately afterwards I get the most awful diarrhoea. Happens every time. Please tell me it's not just me?? And more importantly what can I do to stop it?

Polpette Some people have this problem briefly, while their bodies are getting used to fasting.
However, for a minority of folk (like you) it persists.
It is more common in those who have had their gall bladder removed, but can happen to others.

After probably 20 hrs+ without food, your gut may be quite sensitive

Things to try:

• If your FD meal includes alcohol or added sugar - well, this is one reason we recommend against !
  So cut those out totally on FDs.

• Are you consuming any sugar alcohols (common low carb sweeteners ending in "ol") ? e.g. maltilol in protein bars etc or sorbitol in chewing gum ?
  These often cause diarrhoea, so cut them out completely

• Is your FD meal quite high in fat ? An empty stomach may not be able to process very much fat in one go.
  Try making that meal low fat: lean protein, a portion of beans / peas / lentils, lots of veg, small portion of starchy carbs

• On the FD, cut out fruit juice or fruit - again these can irritate an empty tum.

• If all else fails, it may be that your particular stomach just can't handle 500 cals when so empty.
  The cause may not be the amount of fat / fibre / protein, but just the shock of a single meal on an empty gut.
  Try splitting calories into lunch & supper

Other irritants may be: vinegar, chillis, curry powder, ginger, other strong spices

Thanks for such a comprehensive and speedy reply BigChoc. My fast day meal are just vegetables and protein. Often with chillis or other spices so perhaps that may be the issue. Next fast day I'll try some smaller meals throughout the day and see how I get on. Really hope I can get rid of this as it's quite grim to say the least!!!

Sadly no weight loss this week but I'm getting used to these mini plateaus and they're not a trigger for giving up like they were in the old days of dieting. I like to think of them as my body adjusting to its new weight (not at all scientific!).

Good luck pol . I think chillies/strong spice on a FD empty stomach might give me the runs

Low carb 5:2 adventure joyful day 11 SV update here - feeling great, 4 1/2lb down in last 2 weeks, 3 1/2 of them since started low carb! No carb cravings, no desire for anything other than healthy wholefoods, hunger comes on gradually after 4 hours or so, all feels calm in my body biochemistry if that makes any sense. And, not surprisingly it's making me feel SOOO happy after weeks and weeks of struggling

Have a great day everyone and enjoy your FD BCF

posted too soon..... great NSVs Pol resisting Xmas goodies. I know exactly what you mean, it is really good to accept the mini plateaus as part of the on going weight loss process and not let them panic you or make you give up

Well done on your SV, Clear Really looks like clear skies ahead now

Polpette Some people lose in fits and starts, rather than linearly.
So long as the longterm trend every few weeks is downwards, it doesn't matter if the line is zig-zag to get there

I'm having two weeks off fasting - going to enjoy Xmas- but just wanted to wish you all and esp big choc restful Xmas. See you in NY

Fantastic results with carbs Clearskies! Well done - with the weight loss but more importantly with kicking the carb cravings.

I'm going to keep visualising that zigzag line Bigchoc.

A big thank you to everyone for your support and advice - have a lovely Christmas.

Thanks pol and yes BCF clear skies was the image I had in mind for the better times and better health I was aiming for this year..... enjoy those press ups

All good here, am quite contentedly keeping to my low carb WOE, while surrounded by piles of Christmas treats that everyone else is having. Had a little wobble last night about how much of the food in the house I need to avoid (not that I am actually wanting any of it at the moment) but am well stocked up with food I can eat and know from what feels like every cell in my body that sticking 100% to this is my way forward

Have a peaceful happy Christmas everyone and thanks to all for all the support, encouragement, information and inspirationon here

Keep drinking that water !!!

Morning all, may I join please?

I eat far too much sugar, and snack like a bastard, so I'm worried about managing on even the NFDs. I'm a bit worried that I'm going to feel like I'm being punished twice on the 5:2, but I like the idea of making a long term change.

Have just bought some new scales, and have recently started running again after a long break.

Hi folks

Popping on here to wish everyone a happy and peaceful festive season!

Some lovely positive stories on the thread, I see - they always do my little heart good!

I eat far too much sugar, and snack like a bastard, so I'm worried about managing on even the NFDs. I'm a bit worried that I'm going to feel like I'm being punished twice on the 5:2, but I like the idea of making a long term change.

Welcome Arsey - great name!

This is definitely the place for you. Since joining these threads over 4 years ago I've managed to kick every bad habit I had - snacking between meals, snacking late in the evening; I've got my sugar habit under control - same with my alcohol intake. I lost 24lbs and have stayed the same weight for 4 years, now - never felt so good!

You won't feel like you're being punished at all - you'll look forward to the FDs (easier cos you're 'in the zone' all day) and, with the tips you'll get on here, you'll soon crack the NFDs.

Sounds like you're well motivated already - good luck!

Forgot to say tomorrow's an FD for me!

My grandchildren and son will be joining us on Boxing Day after having Xmas day with their mum - so there will just be myself and DH tomorrow. The children now get two Christmas days.

Don't worry, folks, I'll make up for it with a Boxing Day feast!

B&W I'm fasting tomorrow too ! We'll be crazy fasting Christmas Day buddies
Um, anyone else ?

Welcome, Arsey
Don't worry. You don't have to change all bad habits at once - you may guess from my name what took months !
First priority - 5:2 can help break the snacking habit, which is not good unless you are trying to gain weight and bulk up. Healthwise, it is especially poor if those snacks are often sugary.

B&W, Tip and I, plus several other maintainers come from the time when people had only meals, no snacks between. Strangely enough, that was also the time of only one fat kid per school.
We've also had to break the snacking habit and revert to what worked for previous generations.

Constant snacking keeps your insulin levels permanently raised and insulin is the main fat-storing hormone.

Jason Fung, a doctor who treats patients suffering kidney & liver complications from T2, has some useful graphics of how we should be in a low insulin state most of the day, but how snackers remain in the insulin-dominant state instead

Hi all,
Merry Christmas to all, especially the stalwarts

I shall wave the flag for the wimps corner - I've had a stinking cold for a week so am not fasting at all till I feel better
BUT
I am sticking with
NO SNACKING
Right the way through Christmas.

A tasty, small, high protein breakfast (that always seems to involve smoked salmon and or poached eggs)

A few bits of pastry for lunch - mince pies, sausage rolls, cheese straws

and then a blow out dinner with - tonight its game stew

I plan to keep to that pattern right through the season and then get back to strict 5:2 in January

as I have done for the last 4 years

Hi TiP

I'm also suffering from an attack of the lurgi - started with a sore throat, then a cough, now it's man-flu a bit of a cold.

However, after a nap this afternoon I was persuaded to patronise the local hostelry, for a festive visit.

3 pints later (not really recommended!), I have to say I feel quite a bit better!

I wanted to eat a bit earlier, so my 24hr fast will finish by 6ish, but that was not to be.

Ah, well, stick with this WOL, everyone, and a new life will be waiting for you in 2017 - I promise!

I want to send special Xmas greetings (I should have said this earlier) to BC - our guiding light.

You are a bit of a - you know that!

Happy Christmas Tip, B&W
I hope those lurgies go away now
We are the 3 Musketeers

Hello (and happy Christmas).
BigChoc please can you advise?
My DD19 has followed the 5:2 WOE on and off successfully for a couple of years. An increasing number of problems are appearing. She is hyper mobile, gluten intolerant, has scoliosis, neurological issues incl. pain & hemiplegic migraine. She is away at University and is self catering. It is important that she maintains a healthy weight.
A couple of weeks ago she had a severe migraine and was admitted to hospital because they thought she was having a stroke. It was discovered that her blood sugar was lower than "normal". When released her levels were stable at 4.5.
Her question......Is there anyway of following the 5:2 when she needs to prevent drops in blood sugar levels.?
She has not been given any advice other than "look after yourself better".
She returns to uni early Jan and wants a way of eating that is :
1 Gluten free
2 will help her to lose approx 14lbs (and then maintain)
3 Will be migraine friendly (no alcohol, no chocolate, no caffeine)
4 Will help to maintain blood sugar levels

She likes 5:2 (finds it simple to follow)

Can you help?
Thank you

Bigchoc will re appear soon
but
I have a huge problem with the quote "maintaining blood sugar levels"
Type 1 diabetics need to worry
the rest of us are designede to cope with minimal blood sugar
its the raised blood sugar that is the problem

• what is she drinking : is she properly hydrated at all times (headaches and dehydration are linked)
• scoliosis : what does her consultant say
• hypermobility : very common among girls with not enough muscle tone - get her into yoga, pilates and walking
• gluten free : corn is her friend

but my main point as I say to my uni daughter is DRINK MORE WATER

Thanks talkin peace
DD has multiple (maybe linked) conditions. She has a neuro consultant who is currently treating her for hemiplegic migraine. Her double curve scoliosis is stable (double curve|). She is extremely hyper mobile and has neuropathic pain down one side.
She sees a physio regularly and has a specific range of exercises. She is able to do some adapted yoga and she swims regularly (again adapted)|. She is able to walk a reasonable distance (slowly) and is registered with student disability.
At home she eats well (healthily) but I think, when cooking for herself at uni, she has found it difficult to "be different" from the others in her flat.
She has put on weight ...mainly because she wants to eat like the the others but is unable to exercise it off (she can't use stairs etc).
Re the stable blood sugars .....it has been suggested to her that a drop in her levels may have contributed to her last migraine (she collapsed and was taken in an ambulance to hospital). She was very scared and wants to do anything she can to prevent another episode.
Before she returns to uni we are trying to sort out a plan that she can follow e.g. 6 x healthy breakfasts, 6 x lunches, 6 x teas. Healthy options for the take away, pub dining etc....... all so she can be in control.
but she also wants to lose the excess weight.
She knows the importance of staying hydrated.

If she is not active, plan around 2 meals a day, not 3 : that will instantly drop her calories while maintaining a pattern .....

Samandcj With your daughter's complex problems and with her being under 21 - hence maybe not 100% physically developed - I'd recommend only the gentlest form of IF / 5:2.
Explain to her that it is fine to lose very slowly, say those 14 lb over 6 months - the important first targets are to feel stronger and to stop gaining fat.

I suggest:

• 2 non-consecutive weekly FDs @ 800 cals which should be low carb, i.e. no fruit or starchy veg, but lentils, beans & peas are good.
  Msoely says in his BSD that the 800 cals allows 3 meals which helps those with blood sugar problems

• On NFDs too, for somone only just out of childhood and with blood sugar issues:
  3 meals per day
  In her individual case, I advise against 2 meals daily, because it might be too physically and psychologically stressful. 16:8 or 14:10 are often great for robust adults, but not for a vulnerable young person.

• No snacking or nibbling between meals - because that would just increase hunger and total consumption, as well as hindering fat burning

• Yes, cut out the obvious migraine triggers of chocolate & caffeine; alcohol too - empty calories which can worsen insulin control , as well as choices.
  Fiizzy water with ice & a slice can look fancy enough to help her feel she is joining in the fun.

• If possible, cut out all other junk carbs: sweets, cake, biscuits, crisps, pizza, deep fried food etc
  and move to a low-medium carb Mediteranean regime:

. Plenty of protein, to feel full.
==> Boost fish, at least 3 times per week. Oily fish like salmon is packed with essential oils and for FDs prawns are great in a stirfry.
Eggs are superb protein too
. Replace white bread with wholegrain, white rice with brown / Camargue.
. Good choices too are sweet potato, quinoa, oat bran & steelcut oats (not instant porridge)
. Even with these "good" forms of starchy carbs, keep portions moderae.
. Boost beans, lentils, peas
. Boost plain Greek yoghurt (no flavoured kinds) also try plain kefir or almond milk instead of cows milk

• Exercise: She would benefit by regular lifting classes, if feasible, to build muscle However, a PT is essential to start her with the correct form and she may need more time to learn than others might. So, book her some lessons this hols, which will also help establish what is possible. If her disabilities allow, she should learn to lift barbells & handweights, not just bodyweight exercises These will help coordination and confidence.

She should join a good gym - at the Uni, or within 15 mins travel - so she can do a weekly lifting class. - e.g. pump - as well as Pilates.

You sound a brilliant supportive parent

Also, easier instead of 2 FDs, she might prefer 3 x mini FDs of 1000 cals,
i.e. Mon+Wed+Fri
with same regime, food & exercise etc as I posted