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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 31/10/2016 11:31

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Clearskies99 · 11/12/2016 19:45

Hope it's been a good one BCF
2 lovely healthy NFDs here and really in the zone of no snacking, not overeating and aim to continue that way through Xmas hols..

In answer to your questions, am having v little fruit (mainly the odd apple), no juice or dried fruit, no alcohol, sugar only really when I lapse into a carb/sugar craving moment. Re carbs, trying for healthy portions of brown rice/ oatcake/root veg mainly. Every time I try reducing carbs more I lapse into carb monster cravings so am sticking with the tennis ball size servings for now.

Avoiding sugar and bread helps lots but have yet to devise a failsafe strategy for when the cravings hit. Thanks for all the advice and the other suppportive comments up thread. Feel a fool really that I can't just keep on top of this by will power but I guess I can also see I'm battling something that has been wrecking my body biochemistry for years.

Hope you 've all had a good weekend. Fd Monday coming up Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 11/12/2016 21:57

I completed my lc FD thanks, clear Smile

wrt your carb problem:
cutting down carbs can be horrendous for those who are very insulin-resistant.
Trying to eat carbs in "sensible amounts" rarely works if your body just can't handle them - you are trying to solve a metabolic problem with willpower

I suggest you try 2 weeks of pure low carb - cutting out all starchy carbs, added sugar & fruit completely, but allowing beans, peas & lentils, i.e. Mosely's Blood Sugar version of 5:2
Low carb is used now by many specialists treating disorders of insulin metabolism e.g. the Newcastle Uni Hospital protocol for preT2 and T2.
By the end of week 2, most folk find cravings have either gone or become manageable

OP posts:
Clearskies99 · 12/12/2016 07:37

Monday FD here.

Thanks BCF would that mean substituting beans/peas/lentls for all brown rice/oatcake/potato/other root veg? Off to work just now but will try to read the all the links later.

Have a good day everyone Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 12/12/2016 17:47

Yes, for a 2-week low carb trial, to see if that cuts your carb hunger, go for Mosely's 5:2 Mediteranean low carb BSD:

  • Cut out all starchy carbs - root veg, rice, pasta, grains, oats, millet etc - and all added sugar
  • Restrict fruit to one portion of berries daily to start with, see how you go
  • Add beans, peas, lentils
  • Also increase fat / healthy oils, e.g. oily fish, olive oil on salad, avocado, unsalted almonds
  • For breakfast, you can have e.g. eggs / full fat Greek yoghurt & berries / hot flaxmeal (makes a great substitute for hot oatmeal, just add boiling water, stir until it thickens)

Useful to read his BSD FAQs but don't worry: you are NOT doing the full BSD ( daily 800 cals !) just the 5:2 version:
i.e. daily low carb, with 2 FDs @ 800 cals (not 500) and 5 NFDs around TDEE.

OP posts:
Clearskies99 · 12/12/2016 22:15

OK taking the plunge, have been thinking about it all day, read a couple of the links and think I have to go for it. If it gets me out of this carb cravings stuckness I will be SO HAPPY! Actually feel quite emotional about it. Thanks, as always BCF for all your advice and nudging me in the right direction.

thread's gone very quiet - hope all Monday fasters and nn-fasters had a good day

Night all

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2016 06:33

Good luck, Clear Do post whenever you need support.
The first 3 days can be tough; for your 2 week trial, I recommend you glug down a teasp Marmite or a tbsp unsweetened soy sauce, once or twice per day, to avoid headaches - this replenishes salt & minerals.

These threads have always gone very quiet this time of year, as the Christmas party round blasts off.
They then jump back with a bang in the New Year, as a load of people need to get rid of holiday gain, lots of newbies too.

OP posts:
Clearskies99 · 13/12/2016 07:37

Thanks BCF will do, feeling very positive and focussed, will take 'medicinal'marmite with me to work today. Another lb down since saturday weigh- in and day 1 of my low-carb adventure Smile I CAN DO THIS !

Have a good day all Smile

TalkinPeace · 13/12/2016 07:46

Well, well. That AIBU thread was amusing. We did rather shut it down with facts though. Tee hee.

Hope eveybody is well.
I'm still a tad above target, but BMI is 22 so i'm not really fused.
DH has lost yet more weight from round his waist. Git.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2016 11:29

Congrats on your SV, Clear and a great positive attitude NSV

Hi, Tip On that thread, we posted out experiences that 5:2 worked. We posted peer-reviewed science papers.
We were very unfair - using facts Grin

Well done your DH on his SV and waist NSV - the ideal place to lose fat

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WhiteWinterWitch · 13/12/2016 13:10

Hi all, FD here, didn't get a chance to post last week (found out that an interview I did a while back was successful and have now been promoted 😀) so had a few evenings out to celebrate but still managed two FDs and ate up to happy weight tdee on the evenings out, really getting the hang of this woe and it just feels so easy (nearly too good to be true!!) weighed on Saturday and had 1lb off, very happy indeed

Hope everyone else is doing good and keeping chipping away have a good fast day Tuesday folk Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2016 14:58

Well done on your SV and many congrats on the promotion, WWW - you obviously aced that interview Smile

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WhiteWinterWitch · 13/12/2016 19:02

Thanks bigchoc, yes was delighted with that news, in a field not knowing to be usually woman friendly as well, so it's a bit of a biggie for me. Finished the first FD of this week 500 cals spot on. Off now for a 5k run and some weight work after, then an early night Wink

Monikita · 13/12/2016 20:24

Hi all, FD of sorts today for me. Was planning one but as the day's progressed I've just got more and more exhausted - the same signs DH + DD2 had as they down with a virus. Just ate to hunger but even that's only come to 700 (not like me) so must be coming down with something! Boo for winter.
Good luck with your low carb journey clearskies - I found it easier to resist carbs when I was rested and reduced stress in my life. When cortisol rises, white bread calls my name! Grin
Congratulations WWW you must be well chuffed.

Clearskies99 · 13/12/2016 21:05

Thanks BCF Mon Day 1 of low carb adventure has gone really really well, I feel a deep sense of inner calm which is rather lovely. No sign of the inner demon carb monster, energy levels good, 3 healthy low carb Mediterrean meals and no hunger in between until near next meal. Feeling positive and tentatively hopeful - early days Smile

Get well soon Mon and yes, so true about cortisol-white bread link! Have recently managed to resolve one of the big sources of stress in my life of last few months which is a big relief.

Congrats www on all fronts!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/12/2016 22:45

Well done on your 1st day of adventure, clear
I agree with Monikita about reducing other stress if possible. So, early nights all the way, or a siesta if your nights are too short.
If you can, pamper yourself with soothing massages - I love feet & hand massages - sauna etc

OP posts:
EagleRay · 14/12/2016 09:21

Morning all - the aibu thread was amusing - was looking at it when it started though and just wishing bigchoc would wade in to enlighten everyone!

Having an interesting week - started it by lamenting my set point/plateau and consoled myself by eating another choc off the tree But have done one FD (yesterday) and am now a kilo down already this week!

That takes me to just short of 28lb off and will make sure I reach the 30lb target by Xmas

I also have some interesting before/after pics taken in Aug and now. Will upload somewhere then do a link

EagleRay · 14/12/2016 09:25

Here it is - must warn you I'm wearing swimwear Shock

http://tinypic.com/r/dlkpoz/9

WhiteWinterWitch · 14/12/2016 12:23

Thanks mon & clear I am very chuffed to say the least...had a meeting this morning with the management team and I was extremely nervous but I wore a lovely grey dress that I hadn't fitted into in 4 years, it's belted in the middle so before September I would have looked 5 months pregnant in it! Wore it today and it felt glorious (even dh was taken aback Grin) wow Eagel you look fantastic in your swimwear, great work, well done Wink nfd here so I'm off now to do some Jillian Michaels for lunch as I ate earlier - good luck Wednesday fasters Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2016 14:27

Great progress, EagleRay You are really getting leaner.
Why not also post on the 5:2 Inspirational Thread - people often go there when they need a motivational boost, to see how well others have done.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2016 14:30

Congrats on your dress NSV, WWW You may not notice the weight coming off, week by week, but old fav clothes are a great indicator of how much one has achieved.

OP posts:
Monikita · 14/12/2016 20:25

Thanks clear am feeling much better today and have my appetite back so nfd for me.

Wow eagle you look so toned now - rocking the swimwear!

Such a nice feeling when not only you can fit into favourite clothes but also look and feel great in them too. Double congrats WWW

OopsDearyMe · 14/12/2016 20:29

Help me. I feel like I am in need of a new way of eating. Can someone talk me through starting this?

TalkinPeace · 14/12/2016 22:13

eagleray
focus on that angle between the back of your arm and the shoulder blade - that shows the fat vanishing
well done

ooopsdeary
read the links in the op from auntie bigchoc
5:2 really is the way to go

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2016 23:07

In a damning report, "Whitehall's preparation for the UK's exit from the EU", the Institute for Government say that the absence of a clear Brexit plan, together with the policy of secrecy, are hindering Civil Service planning for Brexit negotiations and for Brexit itself.

Policies and implementation plans must be in place before Brexit, in order to avoid a "cliff edge" when the UK leaves.

news.sky.com/story/secrecy-is-damaging-pm-theresa-mays-brexit-preparations-say-whitehall-experts-10695236

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2016 23:10

oops, wrong thread Blush

And welcome to OopsyDeary Smile
As tip recommends, the OP has all you need to know.
The "How to Start" section gibes the basics

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