5:2 Thread No. 66: If you shaved legs & pits, but the scales still screamed "Ow ! Get off !" then join our friendly group for a new approach.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Remember, B&W Any alcohol on FDs may lose the health benefits and also reduce the tendency to burn fat

Best to keep alcohol for NFDs

Glad to be back big choc. Weigh in this morning.. Last weigh in on 18/10 and I was 78kg and today I was 72.5 kg... Pretty pleased with that! I reckon I have about 8lbs to lose before I hit my target weight, not sure what that is in kg but hope to nearly be there by Xmas

Well done on your SV, Wheelie That's a good rate of loss

Thanks big choc. Think this thread has really helped. Both fast days this week came in comfortably at about 350 calories. I definitely feel like I'm coasting now but reckon the last few pounds will be tough

Thanks WWW and Bigchoc. To be honest, I was pretty surprised by the shoulder stand. Had spent a number of weeks rocking like a beetle stuck on its back and then just managed it! Next step from that pose is to take my legs totally over and touch the floor behind my head with my toes . Think I could actually do it but there's a real chance of me getting stuck, so will only attempt when DH is around!

Am drooling over your Hanukkah treats LadyC - I grew up in a Jewish area so have very fond memories of it. Not unlike Diwali for us - the best festivals are celebrated by deep frying food

Love my apps for exercise - am a big fan of hiit because I have an extraordinarily short attention span for an adult .
Sorry no hyperlinks but I use '12 minute athlete' for bodyweight; 'pocket yoga' for, er, yoga; 'tabata pro' for timing my interval runs, free weight workouts and even my walk between work and the train station. I never do more than 16 min for a single workout but will combine say, 15 mins weights followed by 8-10 min interval run.

Very weird nsv today (and probably tmi) - AF today after a proper 28 day cycle and no cramps. Lost my period a while ago and then it came back but with 5 week cycle where I only had one week where I wasn't premenstrual or on. Hormones all over the place!
Stress was at the root so has taken me a while but have done the following over months to get here:

1. Reduced (body)weight workouts to 2 per week
2. Only do yoga on fast
3. despite being pre-diabetic, increased grain / new potato carbs- I knew something was wrong when I came home one day and ate half a loaf of bread . My body was deprived hence my cravings. Mitigated blood sugar issues by increasing carbs on workout days first and always doing some exercise after eating (fast walk). As my carbs have increased and my body has got used to them, my tolerance and blood sugar readings have improved.
4. increased my cals on nfds. The increased carbs on workout days meant I built up more muscle and actually required more food. I used the principle of gradual reverse dieting. Am currently on higher fds of 700 too.
5. meditate daily, sometimes 2-3 x day. I have an app for that! Insight timer and Mindfulness book.
6. take Vitamin D supplement daily. Although I've gained about 2kg on my lowest point and my hips are a bit bigger, in that same period I've lost 6cm from my waist and am starting to see my abs! Am now very in tune with my body - if I'm not eating enough I crave nut butter or carbs and my waistline increases. I'm officially weird

Morning all.
Good luck to the Monday fasters

Monday FD here, follwing 3 healthy eating FDs
Have a good day everyone, keep glugging that water!

First fast day today! Will keep u all posted xx

Good luck tryingno1.

I had some unsuccessful NFDs - stupidly bought a packet of biscuits and had a Dominos pizza on Saturday!

Never mind, new week new mindset. I'm hoping when I get a new phone and can get MFP my NFD overeating tendencies will be reduced.

Last time I was forced to put everything into MFP it was a real Wake Up call.

Thanks alyosha. Had brekkie and usually would have lunch shortly but going to push it back till 2...am already peckish but going to go make another herbal tea :)

Ohhh dominos ! ;)

Drinking tea definitely helps!

I blame my fiance for the dominos. It was delicious though!

Remember, B&W Any alcohol on FDs may lose the health benefits and also reduce the tendency to burn fat

You're right, of course, BC. That was just a one-off - I don't usually have a FD on a Saturday. What I should have done was defer the pint until the next day. But I was having pizza for dinner!

Thanks to you LadyC, I've just made my first latkes-and very nice they were, too.
I had no matzo meal, so I substituted a ground up rice cake and sesame seeds. For the egg I used gram flour batter. I found it a bit of a faff, but I'll certainly have them again.
First batch perhaps a bit underdone-second batch a bit over? But very, very good!

Gaaaahhh how can it be that one night of drinking can do SO much damage?? Friday night out with old friends, too much white wine consumed and therefore medicinal carbs needed the next day to get through the hangover.

I'd fasted on Weds as I was out Thurs and Friday, but was restrained both evenings, we had had to preorder the food and I chose fish dishes and cheese rather than desserts.

When I got on the scales on Saturday morning I was 7 lbs heavier than on Weds. 7 lbs!!!!! FFS. It has since come down to a 2.5lb gain, so must have been mostly bloat, but I still feel so cross with my body that I have to be so good for so long to see the weight creeping down, then can do so much damage in 2 weak days.

ITS NOT FAIR.

Stamps foot.

I am consoling myself that I am still 10lbs down overall, - but I was so close to the 1stone mark on Weds and now I've blown it. But I'm not giving in. Having a 16:8 day today so have had nothing so far except a latte. Just home from work so about to have scrambled eggs.
PT session tomorrow morning and a fast day.

I WILL get this back in hand. And I will not drink ever ever again. With those people

Hi all, hope you don't mind me joining your thread.

I've been doing 5:2 for just short of 8 months.

I have been a yoyo dieter for the last 6 years and can loose weight but bad habits creep back in and next thing I know BANG 2 stone back on.

I started a slimming club for the unteenth million time in January and lost interest as the scales just would not budge so out of desperation I tried 5:2. My bmi had crept up to 31 and I was creeping my way back up to a size 16 (previously been a 10)

Within 6 months I managed to loose 2 stone 13 pounds. I was 1lb away from my target weight and it all went wrong, I lost interest I abused my food I was getting migraines and was so damn miserable. I didn't jump on the scales as I didn't care anymore.

Turns out it was depression and I was prescribed antidepressants two weeks ago. I didn't cash in the prescription as I decided I was going to try and beat it without and go back to 5:2.

So I'm back on the waggon and faced the music last Monday with a 9lb gain. I am fasting twice a week and eating good food on non fast days.

For me December is where I would start eating my weight in food so it will be tough but I'm determined to not have a repeat on last year and gain a clothes size during December and follow on consuming rubbish into January.

It might just be temporary gain CQ. I find i get a lot of water weight after drinking- I think alcohol (even without carbs) induces water retention.

Welcome sparkly I've just joined too. I'm a bit of a yo yo too. Intent on shifting this weight once and for all!

So first fast day done. 525 and feeling ok. Except it's 6 and I ate already so lots more water for me! Going to do it again tmrw as not working and I can't handle it with work!

How is your 1st Fd going, TryingNo1 ?

Don't panic, CQ A good week nailing both FDs and you should be right back where you were

Excess carbs - especially junky ones and booze - are notorious for temporary water retention:
every 1g carb in excess of what your body uses for energy will be stored with 3-4 x its weight in water.
So, an excess 200 carbs means 1 kg total.
However, retained water should be released soon, as you've seen.

You may find more water is released after your 1st FD of the week. Also, a major dump after all that food may be underway !
Any gain left over after all that is real, but even 2 very indulgent days shouldn't have stored more than 2 lb of fat, probably just 1lb.

For future reference:
Alcohol and junk / sugary carbs are the easiest excess calories for your body to store as fat and it tends to do so around the waist
Also, cheese and creamy sauces are very energy-dense and so easy to overdo: you can add 1,000 cals without realising. So, watch portion size of these.

Next time, go for protein & veg, careful with portion size for carbs & booze.
e.g. I typically have a big steak or salmon with a huge mixed salad with balsamico & olive oil, plus panfried veg if available. Water or mint tea to drink, with black espresso to follow.

Well done on your 1st FD,TryingNo1
It's ok to have an extra boiled egg say if you need it today and still call that a decent early FD.

I recommend you leave a couple of days before your next FD. What we call b2b (back to back) fasting is far too tough for most folk, even experienced fasters.
You may be one of the exceptions, but I suggest you get used to single FDs first.

Can I join you all on here. I am 3 months in on 5:2. I'm a yo-yo dieter but lost 3.5 stone 18 months ago and was really chuffed. Then went on holiday and it all went out the window and I couldnt motivate myself to get back into it. Jump to Sept 16 and I was back where I started! Since then I've given myself a virtual kick up the backside and am on a mission. I've now lost 22lbs and determined to lose another 8lbs before my hols in Feb and more after. I've a family photo shoot booked in April and determined to get down to 145lbs by then.

I love reading all your posts - great motivation and lots of tips and advice.

Welcome, Sparkly
You did so well to lose all that weight before and anyone would get thrown off track by depression.
You know what works for you, so just get back in the swing and you can reach goal again.

I suggest you plan the holiday period carefully, so you have some feasts, but stay mindful and in control.

Suggested Tactics DURING Xmas

• Before you start the holiday, fix the date of your next FD after the hols - you can post it here 
  The greatest danger is not 2 weeks break, but that you keep delaying resuming and return to your old WOE - that made you overweight.

• NO Snacking ever, especially evenings.

• Skip breakfast for daily 16:8 or 14:10 - Have say a double espresso.

• Drink water Start the day with a glass; keep glugging

• Keep alcohol moderate. Preferably nhs limits. At least alternate each glass with a glass of water

• Exercise At least a brisk daily walk.

• Weigh daily

• Examine your holiday plans and see if you can plan a weekly FD or miniFD

Welcome StavelyMumand congratulations on your SV
22 lb is brilliant, so stay focused over the holidays - see tips on my last post - and you can nail your goals